Transcript: Music of South India
[Howard Spring:] Okay, well thank you again for doing this. Why don’t we start off by you just introducing yourselves briefly, so people watching this will know who you are.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Hello, everyone. I am Trichy Sankaran, who has been in the Carnatic music field performing for over 65 years. And I have been teaching at York University since 1971, and I took my retirement in 2015. So, I have taught there for about 44 years. Actually, I came along with the late Jon B. Higgins to start the South Indian Music Program. So, we were the co-founders of the new music program at York University. I think I would like to start with the instruments that I’m having, one on my lap and then one on the side. The one that I’m having on the lap is called mrdangam, which is the principal percussion instrument for any Carnatic concert. It’s used in concerts, and also, it’s played in Bharatanatyam recitals that resulted in classical dance. It’s a versatile instrument, which is used for accompanying songs and also for playing solos. Let me talk about the instrument first. It’s a double-headed cylindrical drum, two-headed drum. The — this head is tuned to the tonic.
[ Drumming ]
Usually, we will have a drone in our concerts in Carnatic music, which will be present throughout the concert actually. And even though this is tuned to G, my drum is tuned to D. Suba is going to be using G as a tonic.
[ Drumming ]
[ Drum Music ]
Traditionally, the drum uses the leather straps to connect both heads. But with the modern dance, we have switched from the leather straps to nylon straps. So, we find it a lot easier to deal with. That’s the idea.
[Howard Spring:] Do you always tune your right hand to a fifth away from the drone?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Not necessarily, just for this occasion I have, normally I tune to the tonic itself.
[Howard Spring:] Okay.
[Trichy Sankaran:] So, I normally will have set of drums because the male singers invariably use C or C sharp as their uh-tonic. And then instrumentalists, if it is a violin solo or other instruments, you know, they will be using D or D sharp. And then for the lady artists, normally they have like F sharp, G, or even G sharp. So, even the size of the drums, you know, they vary according to the pitch, and also, the construction is different.
[Howard Spring:] But you always have to be in tune with the drone?
[Trichy Sankaran:] In tune with the drone, absolutely, absolutely. The interesting thing about mrdangam is this head called the valanthalai, which literally translates into right head. Valanthalai means — that most of them are right-handed players. So, for the left-handed player, you have the switch the drum. So, this is known as the valanthalai, and this is tunable, So, we can really tune and make like the — the sonorous sounds, you know, coming from this drum. And it will really enhance the melody when it accompanies the songs. So — or we take the tuneful strokes. [Drumming] And then the left again, called the thoppi provides the bass.
[ Drumming ]
You can see there are two kinds of tuning pace. One is at the centre of the right head, which is what we call karanai or black spot. This is from a special stone that’s powdered and mixed with the cooked rice and applied in quantities in several layers and then polished with a polishing rock. And that gives the ringing tone to the drum.
[ Drumming ]
And then the other kind of paste is from the cream of wheat, which is mixed—
[Howard Spring:] That’s the cream of wheat that we have for breakfast? Is that the same cream of wheat?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Absolutely, same cream of wheat, mixed with the water and made into a dhobi paste like this. And I adjust the amount to get that good bass tone from the bass head, and that’s the idea. So, after this, the drum is ready to play.
[ Drumming ]
[Howard Spring:] What does the word mrdangam mean?
[Trichy Sankaran:] The original name, mrdangam, comes from the word mrtanga. Mrt in Sanskrit means clay. Anga means body. Originally, the drum was made of clay. So, we were using clay drums, then later on, it was replaced, you know, by the wooden shell. So, now we use jack wood for making these instruments.
[Howard Spring:] Now notice that you’re getting different sounds on each head.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yeah.
[Howard Spring:] How are you doing that?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Well, maybe let me start with the bass head. This is the open sound.
[ Drumming ]
And then this is the closed sound. [Drumming] And then there are certain inflections that are possible on this head [alternating drumbeat] with a special technique, and which is known as gumukki.
[ Alternating Drumbeat ]
Even I can try to raise the pitch slightly.
[ Alternating Drumbeat ]
So, it’s all the hand technique, finger technique.
[Howard Spring:] Right. That’s good. Are you actually — are you actually pushing the drum with the palm of your hand? Like you’re bending the actual skin?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Actually, I’m — it’s striking here for the open sound. [Drumming] And then for the inflections for the gumukki, I strike down there and then push the base of my palm down there to get–
[ Drumming ]
[ Drum Music ]
[Suba Sankaran:] So, it is indeed pushing the skin down.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Skin down, exactly. Just like this. Yeah. [Drumming] So, that’s the idea. On the right head, several sounds are possible. One thing, the outer ring, we [drumming] make this stroke. [Drumming] By the way, each stroke has a name to it. The syllabic concept is very fundamental to Indian music. When we sing the melody, we always look for the pitches, and which are identified by the swara syllables saa, ri, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni. Likewise, on the mrdangam, each stroke has a name. For example, the one that I showed — like the closed sound of the bass end, [drumbeat] tha, and then, [drumbeat] thom is open sound. On the right head, the stroke that’s played here, which involves subtle technique with the ring finger down and snapping with your index finger [drumming] is called a sam [drumming] or sometimes it’s even called a na. [Drumming] Same technique but striking at a different point [drumming]. This has more harmonics. This is called the dheem. And then there is a closed sound or you can call it thud, [drumbeat], ti [drumming] using these three fingers playing at the centre. Then there is a single stroke using the index finger. [Drumming] Often it’s used for alternating technique.
[ Alternating drumbeats ]
[ Drum Music ]
So, there’s a mixture of sounds that you can get from this because of the combination of several of these strokes.
[Howard Spring:] And each sound has its own syllable that you can speak?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes, I’m going to demonstrate that also.
[Howard Spring:] Okay, great.
[Trichy Sankaran:] It comes from like starting with one on one, like each stroke getting a name. But as art improves, as one learns more patterns, then the relationship changes from one to several. The spoken syllables become really complex. And these spoken syllables are called solkattu. Sol means syllable. Kattu means bunch. A bunch of rhythmic syllables, solkattu, so let me finish with two more strokes. And then I’m going to recite the solkattu and play it on the drum to show the correlation of the actual, you know, drum sounds to the spoken syllables [inaudible]. The other stroke is called Ara Chapu. [Drumming] It’s a slap stroke.
[ Drumming ]
Again, using the palm.
[ Drumming ]
Likewise, there’s another one called Maru Chapu. [Drumming] It’s a different technique using the baby finger [drumming] to dampen–
[ Drumming ]
And you get that harmonic, so you can really compare notes. This [drumming], this [drumming], and this [drumming], each one has different harmonics, so to speak. They are richer in tone.
[Ryan Bruce:] How many different strokes are there in total?
[Trichy Sankaran:] In total, I would say maybe 12 or 13, but the combinations is numerous.
[Howard Spring:] Right.
[Ryan Bruce:] Yeah.
[Trichy Sankaran:] You can create out of these 12 different strokes a number of patterns, hundreds of patterns.
[Ryan Bruce:] And am I right [Inaudible] — yeah, so you have separate syllables for the — for the higher pitch side and another separate set of syllables for the bass drum? Or is it you have one set of syllables—
[Trichy Sankaran:] [Inaudible], yeah. Initially that’s how it’s done. Initially, but in the — for the beginners, we say it’s a tha and then thom. But you know, with the advancement of the art, it becomes very complex because the spoken syllables relating to the drum sounds has become an art in itself. And at the higher stage, the speaking of solkattu has become the art of Konnakkol. We have a name for that art, speaking drum patterns, actually using voice as your percussion. You can bring all the sounds. Solkattu is nothing but phonetic vocabulary imitating the drum sounds. And through this art of solkattu, one can even accompany music. You don’t need the instrument. You can just to emulate all the sounds, so that’s the idea. A very brief demonstration.
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
The different pattern–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
If this isn’t fast enough, you have–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Drum Music ]
And so on.
[Howard Spring:] Yeah, and so on. Yeah. Well, that was great.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Thank you. So, Suba, I noticed you were doing something with your hands.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yes. So—
[Howard Spring:] What was that all about?
[Suba Sankaran:] This is called tala keeping. And so, in Indian music, we have two main elements. One is called raga, which is the umbrella term for all of the melodic aspects of Indian music, and tala, which is the umbrella term for all of the rhythmic aspects. Now, this music is not normally notated, which means we don’t think in terms of bars and measures and staff systems and things like that. We think in terms of rhythmic cycles. And this is the way that we keep track of the time. And in a way, I like to think of tala keeping or these sort of codified hand gestures as almost like compressed conducting. And so, we’re really — we’re giving a reference point in terms of the time grid or the metric grid. And so, what I was doing was keeping the most common tala in South Indian music, which is called Adi tala, or an eight-beat cycle, which is counted as a clap. So, the bottom hand just absorbs the sound. The top hand does all the action. So, you’re clapping, and then three gentle finger counts, the little finger, the ring finger, and the middle finger, and then clap. We call this a wave. It’s the turning of the palm, so the palm is facing upwards, then clap and then wave, for a total of eight beats. Or you could also look at it almost like a compound tala, with the clapping as the initiator for 4 plus 2 plus 2, so one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight or one, two, three, four, one, two, one, two. So, that’s kind of the compound way of looking at that tala. And there are many different rhythmic cycles in South India, you know, ranging from three beats to a cycle to 128 leads to a cycle. And this particular Adi tala of eight beats is considered the most common tala, very similar to 4/4 in the West.
[Howard Spring:] Great. So, how does — Trichy, so how does the drum fit into the tala?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Okay, the drum patterns are used to denote the tala. We can call them like tala keeping patterns. That’s one set of patterns. And then within the time cycle one can improvise, there are other patterns that can be superimposed over the tala, not necessarily just going along with the tala all the time. So, you can really see the drumming in relation to the tala and then in relation — many different accompanies relation to the melody and then the permutation, how we improvise within that structure. So, tala provides the frame, timeframe. Within that, the drummer is allowed to improvise. And not only that, as I already alluded to, the solkattu, each tala is studied through the reading of solkattu. In fact, I have been training many students to learn to keep tala using the syllables rather than counting in numbers. So, for example, Adi tala can be– Counted using the syllables, ta, ka, di, mi, ta, ka, jo, nu, four and four, which is eight. So, it goes like this ta, ka, di, mi, ta, ka, jo, nu, ta, ka, di, mi, ta, ka, jo, nu. Another important thing is, I think it’s almost universal, like the concept of doubling, you see in any kind of music in any kind of drumming. So, here, I’ll show how tala is helpful in doing — in different degrees of speed. That actually doubling each time, like one is to two is to four. So–
[ Accelerating Singing ]
You left me alone there.
[Howard Spring:] I see what you mean there. Okay. That was a great.
[Trichy Sankaran:] We all have studied, the quarter note, eighth note, 16th, 32nd, and so on.
[Howard Spring:] Yeah, I see. Yeah. Okay.
[Trichy Sankaran:] This is one concept that – yeah.
[Howard Spring:] Now, how would that show up on the drum?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes.
[ Accelerating Music ]
[Howard Spring:] Trichy, I noticed when you were playing the last time that you ended off with a phrase that was repeated three times.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes.
[Howard Spring:] How does that work? What’s that about?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes. That’s the concept of cadence. And it’s called mora in South Indian tradition, which is very similar to the idea of tihai in North Indian tabla drumming. The threefold repetition of a phrase, pattern, sometimes the pattern could be shorter. Sometimes the it could be really longer. So, kind of three repeats really constitute the structure of a mora. And in that connection, I want to also talk about the importance of the beginning beat of the tala cycle, which is known by the technical term sam. Always we try to land on sam, returning to the beginning of the tala actually. This really tells you that end is not an end in itself; it’s also your new beginning. That’s the implication you get because the music, you see, it’s in a continuum. It doesn’t stop right there. So, a new cycle begins. So, in western music, I have seen, you know, you end up with a base like–
[ Drum Music ]
[ Inaudible ]
And we have the double bar line showing that it’s [inaudible], but it’s not acceptable to us. You have to hear the ending note.
[ Drum Music ]
At last, the thumb is very important, arriving on sam.
[Howard Spring:] So, that ends off sections or pieces or when do you use that? Whenever you want?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Okay. In an ongoing rhythmic development, motifs are developed, and we just improvise on it and then conclude in the form of a mora. So, it happens many times within the structure. For example, within a drum solo, thani avarthanam as we call. Each idea would be improvised, developed, and then conclude in the form of a mora.
[Howard Spring:] Right. Okay.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Let me give a brief example.
[Howard Spring:] Sure.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Just a short example.
[ Drum Music ]
So, here I am, I have taken what we call the madhyama kalam patterns. That’s a medium tempo.
[ Drum Music ]
That kind of pattern. Then at the end of each cycle, I’m introducing the new pattern, that’s my motif.
[ Drum Music ]
So, you have a flow pattern followed by whatever ideas that you have to introduce. And then you develop that idea, and then conclude in the form of a mora.
[Howard Spring:] I see.
[Trichy Sankaran:] So, that’s the idea.
[Howard Spring:] Nice.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Speaking of the patterns, I think I may want to add—
[Howard Spring:] Sure.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Often in North Indian drumming, we come across the tali part of the tala and then the khali part and then sam. That’s how they define the tala. If you take, for example, [inaudible] 16 matras, we call our aksharas, and they call it matras, 16 matras.
[ Syllabic Singing ]
So, the third part, if you take the 16-beat cycle into four parts, four beats each the first two sets have that bias [inaudible] the bass [inaudible]. On the third set of four, it is sped up. That’s the khali part. Many people often, I think, don’t talk about what’s happening in South Indian drumming. We do the same thing too. For example–
[ Drum Music ]
So, you have the third one and just do [drumbeat] leaving — cutting off the bass sound.
[ Drum Music ]
This is how we bring the tonal variation. It’s very important. It’s inherent in drumming, actually, even though it’s not much talked about. And this gives also an antiphonal feeling to the pattern.
[Howard Spring:] You mean antiphonal like call and response?
[Trichy Sankaran:] [Inaudible], exactly. Exactly.
[Howard Spring:] I see.
[Trichy Sankaran:] [Inaudible] the bass, it really, you know, is a powerful coordinate. For example, I will use another pattern. See the role of the bass head, how it embellishes the pattern displayed on the right head.
[ Drum Music ]
It’s nice to hear, but now listen to this with the bass.
[ Drum Music ]
I didn’t change the pattern at all on the right head.
[Howard Spring:] Right.
[Trichy Sankaran:] But it’s the bass head really, you know, gives the colour to the pattern.
[Howard Spring:] Yeah. Makes a big difference, makes a huge difference. Sure.
[Trichy Sankaran:] So, that’s the idea.
[Ryan Bruce:] How much is that linked — how much of your choices of playing the bass drum are linked to the — that wave — the wave that comes in the tala?
[Trichy Sankaran:] In the tala? It is Adi tala normally — probably I would do it on beat five, six, cutting off the bass, and then seven eight, join bass, which is very similar to what we have seen in tintal, Adi tala being a 8 beat cycle, I’ll just do it that way. And then it’s entirely up to the drummer how to embellish a pattern. That’s how it’s done.
[Suba Sankaran:] And of course, as soon as the colour changes that means that the patterns necessarily change as well as.
[Trichy Sankaran:] That’s another thing.
[Suba Sankaran:] So, some of them don’t even have that wave.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Okay, maybe I should be here talk about — at least introduce one or two more talas because we’ve been staying in Adi tala for a while. Another interest, there are talas that are in syncopated measures, symmetrical. And there are talas which are also asymmetrical. If you take, for example, chapu tala is a variety that we have. We have misra chapu tala, which is a seven-eight metre. It’s counted at one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one. Again, it’s also counted the same way in North Indian drumming. They call it rupak tal, seven-beat cycle. One has to be very carefully with the nomenclature, of course. Because something in rupaka tala is different from rupak. Our rupaka tala is a three-beat cycle or six-beat cycle, whereas North Indian, the rupak is seven-beat cycle.
[Howard Spring:] How many talas are there?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Talas, they range from three beats to a cycle to 128 beats. That’s the longest of all the talas, and each tala is codified. And it has got its own described hand gestures. And then tala divisions, like if you take, for example, we call it a kanda jati ata tala of 14 beats is divided as a five, five, two, and two. So, these talas have, you know, starting from the natyashastra period, the earliest time, like Fourth Century AD, more talas have been added by them, by the time we come to the medieval times. And [inaudible] lists about 120 talas.
[Howard Spring:] So, do most mrdangam players who are playing at a high level know how to play in all the talas, or are there certain talas that are used more than others, or?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Only certain talas are used more. Some of the older talas have gone obsolete, but only we are reviving, you know, for research purposes or sometimes for some special demonstration, we revive some of these talas. So, you know, these are all called [inaudible] talas. We started with the [inaudible] talas. I don’t want to go into the long history of talas, but suffice it to say, that we started with the four and three only just like any other system, I would say. Four and three were the main talas. And then, by the time we come to the medieval time, like 12th Century or so, we have created more talas, 120 talas. And talas ranging from three beats to a cycle to 128 beats. I think this has also been an attraction to many Western composers. And I — at this moment, I recall the work of Olivier Messiaen, who was highly interested in Hindu rhythms, [inaudible] Hindu rhythms. And he has used one of the talas from the medieval times, and that is Turangalila, Turangalila-Symphonie. He has used that tala, so it’s very interesting to see. And then we have other talas called chanda talas by about 15th Century. And where you have [inaudible] compositions, devotional hymns set to tala. But here the tala is determined by the specification of the poetry, not the other way. Not creating song within the tala but rather each word is its one metre, so to speak. So, just to give a demonstration, it’s a 21-beat tala. It’s a three-eight, three-eight, five-eight, and a five-four. One, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five. We call it the chanda tala. I named it “Catch 21”, not 22. Yeah, you can [inaudible] from this tala and orchestrate it. And this has been, you know, an interesting topic for me, for my research, and to introduce new talas and the talas [inaudible] in practice, you know, for a long time to reintroduce to the world.
[Howard Spring:] I see. Okay.
[Ryan Bruce:] Well, you’re playing and you’re constructing your phrases within the tala. You said that you are wanting to arrive — or at sam, at the end, to me would seem like there is some sort of planning that’s involved, preplanning, or at least knowing where you’re going to end up before you start your phrases. Could you talk about that a little bit?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yeah, many ideas are premeditated, I should say. But also, there are patterns that we improvise, impromptu. And particularly the moras and the other cadence shall form more complex known as Korvai. These are also part of a drummers repertoire, repertory. And we use the Korvais mostly during the drum song. And the korvais use a unique set of patterns. Just to illustrate–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
So, this kind of [inaudible] patterns form part of a korvai.
[ Drum Music ]
So, these all — there are many compositions that are learnt from the guru, which has been passed on from, you know, generation to generation. And we have also created our own korvais. I have composed many korvais. And this is how the tradition really continues. And there’s a constant arrangement and rearrangement of korvais too. Even the word korvais we take and then we rearrange. That’s happening all the time. So, certainly there is a — there’s an element of premeditation because if there is a complicated korvai, I should know exactly where to start. Even the korvais are also repeated three times, and then I should land on sam. That’s the idea.
[Suba Sankaran:] So, basically thinking more mathematically and geometrically.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Geometrically and mathematically. Again, speaking of mathematics, patterns have their own shapes too. For example, same pattern repeated in an ostinato style like–
[ Drum Music ]
We can call them [inaudible] patterns, and there are patterns, which show the diminutive form. And we compare that to the–
[ Inaudible ]
Drumming. You can see these shapes. At least there are five of them. [Inaudible] the one, the—
[Suba Sankaran:] Yeah, it’s basically this shape. So, going from larger to smaller—
[Trichy Sankaran:] Larger to smaller, and then the opposite is this [foreign language], Sanskrit names. And then we do the [inaudible] the shape of the drum, mrdangam, just called the mrdangam [inaudible]. And then the [inaudible] patterns are [foreign language] and then this [foreign language] is the hourglass shaped drum.
[Howard Spring:] I see. I see. Okay. So, those are different shapes—
[Trichy Sankaran:] [Inaudible] pattern. These patterns are mixed in creating a korvai.
[Howard Spring:] I see. I see. Okay.
[Ryan Bruce:] Could you give us a demonstration of what that sounds like?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes, the one that I did earlier follows the [inaudible] that is a reduction. [Drumming] And then–
[ Drum Music ]
After that point is the reduction, and then followed by [foreign language].
[ Drum Music ]
And then for the second part, also the — you at least to see like it’s a binary form, A and B pattern. The second part can also be played like–
[ Drum Music ]
I changed the pattern for the second part.
[ Syllabic Singing ]
Increasing. So, we have to take into consideration the length of the pattern and how it’s repeated and how it fits in the tala. And then when you are doing three types of the same korvai, you have to know the calculation. And you should start at the right place to land on sam.
[Howard Spring:] So, that you’ll end up on sam, right? Is that what you’re going for? Yeah. Nice. So, you have to work backwards.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yes.
[Howard Spring:] From sam back, yeah.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yeah.
[Suba Sankaran:] Exactly.
[Howard Spring:] Okay. That’s great. You know, we could do this for days, but I think we should—
[Trichy Sankaran:] Of course.
[Howard Spring:] We have to move on, I think. I’d like to get to the kanjira and then to the singing. So, maybe we should look at the kanjira now?
[Trichy Sankaran:] This is the South Indian tambourine called the kanjira. This belongs to the framed drum family. In earlier times, this was used in folk music and also in congregational singing, by [inaudible], and also what we call the [foreign language]. That is narrating story with the music, music accompaniment. But the creator of introducing the kanjira to the classical music of South India goes to my great grand guru [inaudible]. He was the one who thought of like the right size of kanjira that can be used for concerts, and this is just — this is only one set of jingles here. About 7 and a 1/2 or 7 and 3/4 of inches of diameter here, and lizard skin is stretched over the frame here. It doesn’t use any cream of wheat or anything, any paste. But I’m just putting a little water just to do — get a good bass sound. Because otherwise it will just keep going higher and higher in pitch. The challenge with this instrument is all the patterns played on the mrdangam with the two hands. The kanjira player should know how to convert it into like playing into in one hand, using only one hand. And the kanjira player will also use kind of same set of drum syllables. Yet he can also modify to suit the sound of the instrument. For example, when I say–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
That I play on the mrdangam. Here the important sounds are dhom and tha. [Tapping kanjira] So, that same pattern be converted into–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[ Kanjira Music ]
We’ll just continue with that one.
[ Kanjira Music ]
[ Inaudible ]
Some inflections are possible by pressing down there, like this, to increase the pitch.
[ Tapping Kanjira ]
Mostly for holding.
[ Rattling ]
[Ryan Bruce:] We covered some syllables before that you were using. Are there any sort of inflections that you use in speech to indicate changing the pitch as you did there?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Actually, tonal variation, it’s not prescribed. So, it’s up to the drummer when he improvises. Like–
[ Kanjira Music ]
So, just it’s left to the drummer in terms of tonal variation.
[Ryan Bruce:] I’m actually wondering if you could slow a little bit of that down. So, it’s amazing. But I’m wondering if it’s something really slow and even if you — or even something at a medium pace so we can get just another idea.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Maybe we can start with some bold strokes like open tone.
[ Kanjira Music ]
So, these are open strokes, and then I use the [inaudible] here and then the alternating technique, [alternating tapping] one and three or three and one as you like.
[ Kanjira Music ]
[Inaudible] same way you can also do it on the open end.
[ Kanjira Music ]
[Ryan Bruce:] Thank you.
[Howard Spring:] Thank you. So, when you’re doing a concert, let’s say, does the kanjira ever — is it ever the only rhythm instrument or are there — does there always have to be a mrdangam?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Mridangam is the principle instrument. Always, there should be mrdangam. Kanjira is considered a subsidiary percussion instrument. We call that [foreign language], always teamed up with the mrdangam player. But in many cases, the kanjira player would also have studied mridangam. Only if you play both mrdangam and kanjira because [inaudible] I have chosen mrdangam as my principal instrument. Nevertheless, I practice the kanjira, and I have also been teaching kanjira, and I have played in concerts too. But my main preference is to really use mrdangam in concerts. The interesting thing is to really compare the patterns played on the mrdangam and how it’s changed to suit the instrument kanjira. That’s the most important thing.
[Howard Spring:] But they’re basically the same patterns that you’re using on both?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Basically, exact same pattern, same korvais can be played.
[Howard Spring:] Right, okay.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Let me just give another korvai just to — on the kanjira.
[ Kanjira Music ]
It’s spoken as a–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
[Ryan Bruce:] I would like to just ask about this because this is a precomposed pattern, a longer pattern. Because when you were first playing it, to me, it sounded improvised. So, how many of these patterns — or how are we to differentiate? How can we start hearing—
[Trichy Sankaran:] It’s hard to draw the line between like where improvisation ends and where the composed form enters. It’s hard to, you know, find out. Nevertheless, I can tell like, you know, like as a preparation to the korvai, sometimes I improvise some patterns and then get into the korvai. korvais are kind of, you know, precomposed as you say, but within the korvai you can also improvise. For example–
[ Singing ]
[ Kanjira Music ]
Like then you play the [kanjira music] or I can play–
[ Kanjira Music ]
There are so many variations [inaudible].
[Ryan Bruce:] I like that, the idea of variation.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes, [inaudible].
[Ryan Bruce:] As it as a type of improvisation, I think that’s [inaudible]—
[Trichy Sankaran:] [Inaudible] solkattu, one can improvise, even though I gave like a–
[ Singing ]
Just to beautify that piece, I can go — I can say like this.
[ Singing ]
These patterns can also be heard in the Bharatanatyam cycle. Because the solkattu comes from two great traditions. One is the Bharatanatyam tradition and then the concert tradition.
[Howard Spring:] I see. Okay. So, dancers would have to know all this as well, is that right?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
[Howard Spring:] I see.
[Trichy Sankaran:] In fact, that’s what, you know, we are going to actually use one piece from the dance repertoire called “Jatiswaram”, which I will ask Suba about to sing.
[Howard Spring:] Yes. Well, let’s move over to the singing a little bit and figure out how all of that fits into singing or how singing fits into that. So, Suba, do you want to say just a few words about yourself, and then [inaudible]?
[Suba Sankaran:] Sure. So, my name is Suba Sankaran, and I’m Trichy Sankaran’s daughter. And I have studied South Indian rhythm and singing all my life, as well as western classical jazz, acapella music, world music, a lot of different types of music under the sun. And I’m a composer and an educator and performer and touring artist and a recording artist as well. And in this context, I will be — we’re talking about Carnatic music, which is the classical music of South India specifically. And the piece that we’re going to do for you is called the Jatiswaram, which is a particular compositional form in the Bharatanatyam tradition. Bharatanatyam is one of the classical forms of dance from South India. Now, something we mentioned earlier was the drone that — where the mridangam is — the right head of the mrdangam is being tuned to. And so, my key is the key of G, actually G and a little bit higher than G just because of the nature of the drum today. It is a natural skin, which means it’s going to change depending on the humidity, the air pressure, the lighting. All of that, it’s — it can be a little bit temperamental that way. So, here’s my key centre. Now I should mention that this instrument behind me, this is called a tambura or tambura. And it’s a four-stringed lute-like instrument, as you can see, with a small board at the bottom that gives all its resonance between that and the metal strings. That’s the kind of ancient drone instrument. Indian music does not have, normally speaking, any key changes. And so, we stick to one key, which is why the drone is so important. And so, this is our original drone instrument that later became the sort of pump organ that you can kind of see right here. This is the original pump organ called a sruti box. Sruti means pitch. And so, this is our pitch generator. Then there was an electronic version of that, which would be kind of a plugin thing. And now we have what we call the [inaudible] tambura, which is what I’m using for convenience sake. And so, you can hear, just like these four strings, you can also hear the four strings in this digital sample.
[ Tambura Tones ]
[ Syllabic Singing and Tones ]
So, that’s the fifth two upper tonics or upper octave, lower octave. So, it has its own pattern, and it has its own cycle. And normally, if we had a tambura player, they would be plucking those strings throughout a two- or three- or four-hour concert. As I said, there are no key changes in the music, so to speak. So, that’s — that would be their job. So, I’m going to be using — my father mentioned earlier the terminology of the solfege in South India, which is sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni, sa, sa, ni, dha, pa, ma, ga, ri, sa in the descent. And that corresponds roughly to the western solfege, do, re, me, fa, sol, la, ti, do, do, ti, la, sol, fa, me, re, do. And it works in exactly the same way. Each of these words represents a degree of the scale. So, if I did do, re, me, re, do, the equivalent sa, ri, ga, ri sa, so you get the idea of how that works. And of course, I’m tuning to this drone. That’s my phonic or my do or my sa. And so, the piece we’re going to do is called the [foreign language] Jatiswaram. And the Jatiswaram is — I don’t know, if you want to talk a little bit about the compositional form that it is, but it’s performed as part of a dance recital. And we’re in the raga. I mentioned, raga is the umbrella term for all of the melodic aspects of Indian music. So, one of the ragas is called [foreign language]. So, this piece is referred to as [foreign language] Jatiswaram, [foreign language] representing the raga that is in, Jatiswaram representing the compositional form. And so, the scale, I’ll just do it in kind of plain tones–
[ Singing ]
Same thing on the way down.
[ Singing ]
Now, we would never perform a scale that way. Similar to the [inaudible] that you hear getting all the nuance to the drums, we have something called gamakas. Gamakas are the microtonal inflections or the subtle bending of the notes that we get authentically Indian. We can call them decorations. We can call them embellishments, ornaments, or inflections. And so, I’ll sing that scale for you now.
[ Singing ]
So, this is the [foreign language] raga. And we’ll be performing the Jatiswaram together, and it’s going to feature those solfege syllables, sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni, sa, throughout the piece. And it’s a bit like, — in a way, a theme and variation. I’ll always be coming back to a particular theme after some variations each time, and at the end, we’ll be doing something together, part of the dance tradition called the [foreign language]. And the [foreign language], again, you’re going to hear us in recitation using [inaudible] syllables that are more common to both drumming and dancing. So, if you were to imagine a dancer here, their footwork would match in unison with what we’re doing at the end of the piece and throughout the piece, in fact, a lot of units of activity, a lot of rhythmic activity.
[Trichy Sankaran:] A quick word about the composition form. This piece uses only solfege syllables, and they fall into certain rhythmic groupings. And these rhythmic patterns are called the jatis. Jati is another term that’s used, just what we say like the solkattu. So, they form into jati, so these jatis are sung to the solfege syllables. There are very interesting patterns happening within this, and there are no lyrics to this piece, no words to it. So, fully made of swaras [inaudible]. This is actually one of the 19th Century compositions, you know, like [inaudible] who was a great dance master and composer. And so, this one is in seven-beat tala cycle So, Adi tala minus 1, so it’s a clap followed by two-finger drums, and then clap, wait, clap, wait, on a seven-beat cycle.
[ Drum Music ]
After each [inaudible] passage, we’ll return to what is known as the [foreign language] segment.
[Suba Sankaran:] The reframe.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Reframe, we always come back to that. That’s the idea. So, it has a [foreign language] section followed by several passages.
[ Drumming ]
[ Music ]
[Suba Sankaran:] Tuning is good.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yeah. I think so.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yeah. It’s okay.
[ Music ]
This is the [foreign language] Jatiswaram.
[ Music ]
[ Singing and Music ]
[ Clapping ]
[ Singing ]
[ Singing and Music ]
[Howard Spring:] Well, that was great. Was there any improvisation there or that was all composed?
[Trichy Sankaran:] For the drumming part, actually, it’s an improvised accompaniment. But sometimes you heard like note for note synchronizing.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yes.
[Trichy Sankaran:] I was keeping like upbeat rhythms.
[Howard Spring:] Right. Right, yeah, I heard that.
[Trichy Sankaran:] [Inaudible] the dance piece to [inaudible] upbeat beat rhythm. So, within the structure, I was improvising.
[Suba Sankaran:] And the song itself is fully composed.
[Trichy Sankaran:] The song is full composed.
[Howard Spring:] So, how much interaction is there between the two of you? [Suba Sankaran:] I would say complete interaction. There’s this — you want to have this feeling of being simpatico so that we can — you could hear us kind of playing with those rhythms a little bit. So, where things felt like they’re almost swinging a bit or shuffling, rather than being [syllabic singing], you know–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
That kind of thing where we can kind of play around a little bit. I feel like that’s essential. And that’s — I mean, that’s something that I’m blessed with having grown up in this family and having performed for a very long time together. That’s something that doesn’t come naturally to everyone, I would say, that feeling of really coming together and being able to sort of swim in the waters in the same way.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Drummer should be familiar with it also.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yes.
[Trichy Sankaran:] The drummer I should really, you know, know the piece really well to be able to, you know, provide an improvised accompaniment.
[Suba Sankaran:] That’s essential, and drummers, you know, it’s very different from something like a jazz context, where the drummers might not actually know the head of a song. In this case, you have to know not just the [inaudible] or the refrain, you have to know all of the variations. Or if you don’t know it, those are the places where those korvais that come in or those moras that are inherent even in the melodic side, then a drummer can catch on to it. But really, they do have to have it memorized.
[Ryan Bruce:] I wonder, could you talk about — because you just — you mentioned the form. And if we were to go back and listen to what you just performed, which is great, we have it on a recording, there are definitely important sections. And you’ve mentioned that there’s the Pahlavi. How would we identify that without listening to it? You know, if I was to listen to another song, I might want to identify the chorus. Right? You’ve mentioned this is like a refrain. So, this is something that repeats and comes back. So, what is it — could you give a demonstration of the beginning of the Pahlavi?
[Suba Sankaran:] Yes. So, [inaudible] yeah, so the Pahlavi line is the one that that we actually start the piece with. And so, that’s the one that starts on the high sa.
[ Singing ]
That’s the [inaudible]. And so, you’re going to hear that — I do it twice off the top to really establish, hey, this is — this is what you need to listen for. And then after the variation, I’m always coming back to it. And you can hear that in its construction — in its compositional construction. It feels like we’re basically outlining the raga.
[ Singing ]
So, we’re coming down. We’re coming up. And that gives you the kind of overarching bird’s eye view of what’s happening in that piece.
[Ryan Bruce:] Great. And then at the end of the piece, you guys were saying the solkattu rhythms?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes. That’s called the [foreign language] in the dance tradition. It’s very common with many dance pieces to end with the [foreign language], what we call like a korvai, which is very similar too. But they have a different term, and that’s called a [foreign language].
[Suba Sankaran:] And again, in terms of its construction, we have the diminutive pattern.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Pattern here, yeah. [Suba Sankaran:] And then the repeated the pattern.
[Trichy Sankaran:] The mora within the structure of the korvai itself. So, we did like a–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
After that is a [inaudible], diminutive pattern. And then [syllabic singing] is a bridging phrase to — just to distinctly show the mora–
[ Syllabic Singing ]
That’s the more part.
[Ryan Bruce:] Great. How does that relate to the — to the jati that you were talking about before?
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yeah, these patterns are called the jatis. And for example, even within the Jatiswaram, saying that it’s [syllabic singing].
[Suba Sankaran:] Yeah.
[ Singing and Music ]
[Trichy Sankaran:] So, each passage you have, you know, this kind of, you know, rhythmic pattern that’s highlighted by the drum.
[Ryan Bruce:] So, it’s like you — what I’m getting is that there’s the jati and the raga that are being outlined in their own [inaudible]—
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yes, exactly.
[Ryan Bruce:] The two are coming but coming together.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Coming together. Yeah.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yeah.
[Ryan Bruce:] Yeah.
[Trichy Sankaran:] She’s singing in the swaras, and I’m iterating through my drumming patterns, but they form in rhythmic groupings.
[Suba Sankaran:] Yeah. [Inaudible] So, the jatis are like the variations on the swaram. So, it’s called Jatiswaram, so it’s like variations on the swara solfege syllables.
[Trichy Sankaran:] Yeah.
[Ryan Bruce:] Trichy, how did you — how did you learn? Because there is a lot of theory, and there’s a deep tradition, are you able to give us a brief story about how you learnt and how that ties in with some of the theory and this — in this classical music tradition?
[Trichy Sankaran:] I learnt it from my gurus. In this tradition, the student learns from the guru directly. First, I studied under my cousin, who was also a great mrdangam player and also a great teacher. After studying with him, initially for four years, I was sent to his guru, my great guru, the legendary Maestro Bellamy Subrahmanyam Pillai [phonetic]. And I studied under him, and I had my debut at the age of 13. Interestingly, the guru [inaudible] to verbalize like what I’m doing here. He shows by example only, and it’s just through trial and error method. You have to simply be attentive to listen. You have to listen to the patterns that he’s playing. And he may repeat maybe once or twice, and that’s it. You are supposed to learn that way. It’s an amazing system. Particularly I remember, even my debut nothing was rehearsed. And I was teamed up to perform with the great [inaudible] experts, rhythm experts in their concert. But just the look will tell you what to play now. Now, you play. Now you don’t. Just you have to be so attentive, and this is the type of learning that’s fading away now, studying under the master. This is the Gurukula method. Now from Gurukula, we have come to cyber.
[ Laughter ]
Everything, you know, learnt from a YouTube and everything. These are the real advantages, of course, you know, it’s very strenuous. And you cannot really — they won’t follow any timetable to teach, and you are at the beck and call of the master. And you should be ready at any moment, and that kind of gives you discipline. And what I consider in later years looking back of my own training, I call it self-discovery approach. You have to discover yourself. You have to decipher many of the patterns that he would have played, many of the korvais he would have played in the [inaudible], in the concert. It’s an amazing tradition. And also, to get a chance to perform duos with your guru is a remarkable thing. It’s a blessing. It’s a great blessing. And just [inaudible]. Theory was very rarely talked about. But I developed an interest on my own, and particularly when it came to academic teaching, I developed an interest in studying the theoretical concepts of both traditions, Carnatic and Hindustani. It’s very important. And of course, there is always a question saying like, you know, the performance and the practice, the theory and practice, which came first? Did we theorize, you know, what was going on as practice? Or do you always think about theory when we perform? No. It’s there. It’s in the back of our minds, but performance comes first. So, that’s how — that’s my experience, you know, in learning theory.
[Ryan Bruce:] That’s great. Thank you. Well, it’s definitely very rich and deep.