Transcript: Balinese Music Video 3: Interview: Dewa Suparta and Maisie Sum
[Howard:] First of all, let me thank you both Dewa and Maisie for doing this. Why don’t we start by you just introducing yourselves. Dewa, you want to go first?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. My name is I Dewa Made Suparta, and I am from Bali, Indonesia. I’ve been teaching the Balinese gamelan here at Conrad Grebel University College since 2015, and as you’ve seen here, we have a full setup gamelan. It’s called gamelan Samara Dana. It’s a seven tone Balinese gamelan.
[Howard:] Great. Maisie.
[Maisie Sum:] Okay. Hi. Thanks for having us, Howard. Excited to be part of this project. So, my name is Maisie Sum. I teach at Conrad Grebel University College as well, and I codirect the gamelan with Dewa Suparta. And so, these instruments that Dewa just mentioned were purchased in 2016, and it was, it took us going to Bali to go and speak to the pande who is an instrument maker of gamelan. And so, gamelan is the Indonesian term for “orchestra” or “ensemble.” And it was just a wonderful process of, you know, finding out what kind of ensemble we wanted, how many of the instruments of the Samara Dana orchestra we wanted to bring to our university. Because some universities only have a partial set or have a mostly full set but are missing a couple. And so, in our case, we had decided because of the versatility we wanted to have, Dewa is also a composer. But also we have students in this program that take composition. So, we wanted to have the kind of maximum, full range of the instruments for students to experiment on as well in their projects. So, my own involvement in gamelan has been a while, I guess, starting, well, I don’t know. As a university student myself. But it’s really been, I’ve been fortunate to learn from a culture bearer as well before Dewa coming here. But as a university student, but it really was going to Bali that opened my eyes to the culture and the experience of being there.
[Howard:] Well, the instruments there that we’re seeing really look fantastic. Can we sort of talk about each one in turn and just? I know that you demonstrate them in the accompanying video that will go with this, but maybe in more of a close up kind of discussion of these instruments to start with might be helpful.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] this one called kempur actually. And like it sounds.
[ Gong ]
So, when we say it in Bali, it’s this kempur [reverb sound]. So, that’s the sound. Let me play it again.
[ Gong ]
And this one is called kempli.
[ Gong ]
[ Imitating Sound ]
So, that’s our, the name of it is based on its sound, actually. So, this one is.
[ Gong ]
Kempli
Kempur, this is the male gong.
[ Gong ]
And this one is the female gong or gong wadon.
[ Gong ]
And then, after that, I would like to introduce a little bit about this instrument here next to me, the tallest one in this group of instruments. So, in the video, I didn’t mention about this instrument, actually, giving a cue to start a piece sometimes. So, in Bali, we don’t have, when we start a piece, we usually have a one, two, three start. It’s not like that. It’s just really based on very short cue. So, for example, we want to, let me demonstrate here. You can see. That for example, we need to start a piece that start a bit slower. So, we will start like.
[ Music ]
Just start directly like that, just based on this one. So, that’s when.
[ Music ]
So, we want to a bit faster. The cue will be little bit more quick.
[ Music ]
So.
[ Music ]
But, so what happened, all the players learn the cue from the ugal player. So, when the ugal player gives a cue like this, that mean they already know that going to be fast piece. So, but we usually practice together for this one. So, what I mean, this instrument, the player of this instrument give a cue sometimes to start a piece. So, just based on this or if faster is going to be. Now, let’s use the Gilak as an example. So, I’m going to try to play Gilak at a certain tempo. For example. Slow.
[ Music ]
The slow one. If I want to play fast, my cue will be a bit faster now.
[ Music ]
[Howard:] That’s great. Thank you. Now, does everybody in the ensemble learn how to play every instrument, or do certain people specialize in certain instruments?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] You mean, here or in Bali?
[Howard:] In Bali.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Oh, in Bali. Depending. Like some people will learn all, and some people not. It’s really depending on where they are. So, like when we studied at the university, so we have the chance to learn how to play all of the instruments. And actually, it’s as a composer, at least in the past, it requires for you to know how to play all the instruments because it’s everything that you create is based on how people going to play your piece. I’m guessing here. So, and also, yeah. Myself, yeah. We but myself, I learn all the instrument, actually.
[Howard:] So, did you learn at a university?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] I started playing since I was pretty much, I’m exposed to, I grew up surrounding the musician in my house. So, I’m, I always seeing my uncle, my cousins playing gamelan. So, when I had the chance to pick up the instrument, I will try to imitate what they just, what I just saw. Like, that’s how I start. I don’t even remember what year was that. So, pretty much I just pick up the mallet and start imitating the what I just saw at that time, yeah.
[Ryan:] For people that are learning the, that start learning the instruments, is there a typical progression that they would learn one instrument first or how do people decide which instrument or how is it designated what instrument they would learn first?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. That usually just learn with one instrument only. Yeah. So, for example, like we, in Bali, we usually learn in one-on-one lessons. So, what happen like let’s say, like, in my village in the past when I started playing together. So, all the kids just gather together, and then one of the teachers in our village, just decide, okay, you play on this instrument, you play on that instrument, you play on that instrument. And after the first, after a few rehearsals, so they start kind of reorganizing. Oh, I think he’s good at playing this instrument. I think he’s good at playing that instrument. So, based on the progression that the kid doing it at time. Yeah.
[Maisie Sum:] I can add as well. So, in the village of Pengosekan where Dewa’s from, or they have a community hall called a banjar. And there is, or there had been for, there used to be a gamelan that is available for anyone in the village to access. And so, that was just placed in this community hall, open access. Things have changed more recently where it is kind of under lock and key. So, you need to request permission. So, that was a space in which children grew up hearing this music on a regular basis, whether it’s rehearsals or for ceremonies or for performances or concerts. And so, children could go and afterwards, you know, play on those instruments and try out these rhythms or patterns. But Dewa also comes from a musical family, so Pengosekan village is also known as a music family. And so, when there are events going on, that village is sometimes called on to provide musical services for other communities. And so, his particular family has a sanggar, so a kind of collective where other people from the village will come to learn. So, that is the environment in which he grew up in which is, you know, why he’s mentioning his uncles and his cousins and so forth. Because it really was one of those, you know, encompassing musical families.
[Howard:] Great. So, if I got this right, traditionally, the gamelan was available to everybody, but my question is who owns the gamelan, or does anybody own it?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] In the past, usually the village who own the gamelan. Yes. And usually available for anybody that from pretty much anybody that want to play it, they can ask permission, and yeah. They have the access to it. Like, for, as Maisie mentioned before, so the gamelan usually placed in the community housing? What is it called?
[Maisie Sum:] Community hall?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] It’s called bale banjar in my village, yeah. And the instrument just available in there. And although, sometimes, they don’t have a mallet, so we just make our own from home or pick up some stick or whatever you can. And then just start knocking it.
[ Music ]
Yes. Something like that. So, just hit and down, hit and down until become natural. And yeah. And we usually have some kind of a preference. So, like, as a child, I remember when I was a child, I like to watch a Barong dance which has a very simple melody, just.
[ Music ]
Gong, gong, gong. So, that’s what the melody, and the interlocking was gong, beat, gong, beat.
[ Music ]
Yeah. That’s the most favourite thing that kids did when I was growing up. So, we always playing that. And sometimes, even the yeah, someone just volunteer. Oh, you should do this, you should do that. But we that’s the favourite thing that we do. It’s almost like, it’s like the fun thing to do for us in the past. Like that. Yeah.
[Howard:] So, did you have a teacher teaching you this particularly, or you just picked up whatever you could and played?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] In the beginning, we don’t really have a teacher. That’s how we just play around with it first. And then, I think when I was even wrong, I was eight years old at that time. And that my teacher and also my cousins [foreign word] form a children group in my village. So, at that time, we formally start a group in the village. So, and yeah. So, that what happened. And then I actually started by playing the melody instrument first. And then, after that, I have the chance to try the more complex instrument. And then, that’s how I started. And then, actually, I always had kind of not a dream, but it’s a goal. When I see my cousins or my older cousins performing, it’s kind of like make me wanted to be at. I want to be on that stage, too. So, that’s how actually myself. That’s how what is actually motivate me a lot. So, I see all my cousins on the stage, and I was watching it, and it just make me always want to play with them.
[Howard:] Okay. So, the instrument you’re playing now, it designates the tempo, I think. But does it do anything else? Does it play the skeletal melody or? [Dewa Made Suparta:] This one actually play the ornament, [of] the skeleton melody. So, for example, this is the like in the Gilak for example. So, if this is the skeleton melody like this.
[ Music ]
Gong.
[ Music ]
This is the variation.
[ Music ]
That’s one example that you can do from this instrument.
[Howard:] So, the variation that you played, is that improvised or is that composed?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] This, what I just played before, I just improvised on the spot.
[Howard:] Okay. Okay. Great. Okay. What about the other instruments that you’ve got there?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah, the instruments, so I hope you can see here. So, the kajar. I think it’s, as I mentioned in the video demonstration, the kajar is very important in Bali because, you know, the tempo in the Balinese music often change. Sometimes there’s a sudden shift in there. It true to drown that control, the tempo. But to keep everyone together, everyone have to watch the beat keeper, especially in the faster, in the fast speed, in the fast tempo of the music. So, yeah. Some people, yeah, describe that as like the heartbeat of the gamelan. Like that, yeah.
[Ryan:] So, am I right that what you’re, the way you’re explaining it is that the kajar player will be following the drummer for the tempo changes? [Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. Exactly.
[Ryan:] But everybody is actually focussed on the kajar in order to make it cohesive group so everybody stays together.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. Or not. It really – the drummer and the kajar, actually, they work together. That’s why I want to show you these three instruments. So, when we play in Bali, what happen often. So, if I play this instrument here and the kajar player will be next to me. And sometime, as an ugal player, as this instrument. So, you make a lot of eye contact and body language with the kajar player. So, the drummer, also, this is like a triangle inter, what’s the term? Interdependent when we’re working together. So, the drummer give a cue to the ugal player, and the ugal player give a cue to the rest of the musicians to get loud, for example. So, we work together, and the kajar player always next to us, and then we always see our body language how to. If I want to put, let it speed up a little bit more. So, I will, the way that I will play going to be like.
[ Music ]
So, I will move more. If I want to slow down, I will use my mallet more to slow it down.
[ Music ]
There is a drummer as well to have in contact. That’s why we always working together between the drummer, the ugal player, and the kajar player. And the rest of just follow that three main instruments.
[Howard:] That’s very interesting. So, why does the tempo change, and who makes the decision?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Depending. If we play for, let’s say, if a precomposed piece, that’s already set. So, we practice where to speed up, where to slow down. But still, during the performance, you, as you might know, we will never the same because it’s still based on the energy, based on the emotional aspect of it. So, the tempo is always changed. So, but, for a precomposed thing. But if we play it for accompany a dance, so in that context, the dance movement that the drummer follow. So, in that context, again, the gong involve in there. So, the gong cycle tie pretty much the cycle, and the dance movement based on the gong cycle. And then, the dance will give a cue based on the gong cycle, and then the drummer will react according to the dance, to the dancer, and then, after that, the drummer give a cue to the rest of the musicians to respond for that one. So, it really depending on in what context who decide to change the tempo for that one.
[Maisie Sum:] And some pieces are precomposed or through composed, like Dewa mentioned. But then, others, so it’s scripted. But others are more improvisatory. And so, in which case, you really do have to watch the dancers, just wouldn’t you say, or?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. We just have to watch everyone what the dancer. And now, to keep the music together and neatly, we have to rely on the drummer and the kajar to keep the music together, pretty much, to go up and down. And then the tempo, usually very fast for that kind of piece. At least I’m talking about Baris or Topeng Keras, like that kind of piece. And usually, the cycle of that kind of piece is not that long, but usually, it not 8-beat cycle, is 16 beat cycle, usually, for that kind of piece.
[Ryan:] So, Maisie, when you said that it’s improvised or more improvisatory, are you talking strictly just about the tempo, or is there other aspects that would be more improvised with dance music?
[Maisie Sum:] In terms of the gestures. So, there are stock movements for, I’m going to let Dewa speak to this because he also was a dancer growing up but chose the music side of things. But yeah, you have stock gestures for these dances that Dewa mentioned. But how they play out, like you were saying, adhere to the gong pattern, adhere to, you know, the melodic pattern. And so, how the dancer chooses to make those moves or which move he wants to do at which time is improvised.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Improvised.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] We, you actually are tied by the gong cycle. You cannot just make a movement in any beat. So, the music will be like broken pretty much, so.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah, so there are, it’s improvised, but there are, of course, rules, you know, when you do certain movements and when it would make sense, when it doesn’t. And so, you know, there is this, at least I find as someone who has watched gamelan in Bali but also outside of Bali where there is an important interaction between the dancer and the drummer. Whereas they need to understand all of them have to be on the same page with regard to rules. And sometimes, if you have some people who are a little bit less experienced, they may not know exactly where to give that cue as a dancer because for these improvised dancers, it’s really them who are usually, would you say, giving the cue?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah.
[Maisie Sum:] And sometimes it doesn’t come at the moment that it’s expected to, and so that can throw off people. Although, it’s skilled drummer will still be able to make the best of it and respond and cover that all and, you know, bring everyone together with it. But it will be something that is picked up as by musicians that are familiar that it was not the correct kind of space to be doing that kind of movement. So, it is improvised but with rules as we know for a lot of different kinds of music. But I also want to say just with regard to the kajar, the tempo changes, that sometimes in Balinese gamelan, it’s rather gradual, which is why it’s important to be listening to and, you know, keeping this interdependent relationship going and everyone listening to the kajar. But in other cases, it could be pretty kind of drastic. And so, that’s why, you know, this interdependent trio is really key to having a tight performance and, you know, frequent rehearsals.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. The frequent rehearsals, as she mentioned, is I think that’s the most important aspect of the, to playing gamelan well. As maybe as you might know, the in Bali when we have a performance coming, we actually practice every day for many hours until we have everything memorized, and we, until we don’t need to think about it. That’s how we say it in Bali. We don’t have to think about doing it anymore. But just at the end, before the performance, the level of the musician usually just about how to make the sound beautiful. Not just about I hope I don’t make a mistake tonight. It’s not about that, but it just about how to make it, how to make the sound beautiful tonight. Yeah.
[Howard:] What about some of the other instruments?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Other instruments. So, this instrument is let me show you it. This instrument called calung. It plays melody. So, the melody instrument actually is a bit lower. The one that play melodies actually a bit lower than the more density subdivision instrument. So, also we using the rubber mallet to play it. So, here, let, important to mention that the Balinese gamelan has a tuning system called ngumbang-isep which is the same note but slightly different in order to create ombak or beating.
[Howard:] I’ve read about that in books. Usually the word they use is like a shimmer.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes! Shimmering. Shimmering. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Howard. Yes. So, yeah. So, that instrument is, can you play that one?
[ Music ]
It’s the same note but slightly different. And then, when we play it together, it create that shimmering sound.
[ Music ]
So, all the gamelan, it in one set. Tune according to the same bidding pretty much. So, and also, now, I would like to mention a little bit about the basic technique of playing gamelan. So, this one, so yeah, the basic technique of playing Balinese gamelan consists of hitting and damping. So, hitting it with this one, for example.
[ Music ]
So I use the other hand to mute the note. So, when we hit the next note, so we hit and damp. We hit, we damp. One moment. The.
[ Music ]
So, we damp the previous note at the same time as we hit the next note. So, for example, if we played this two note.
[ Music ]
So, without mirroring the note, without damping the note, what sounds like this.
[ Music ]
So, we do not that sound. Traditionally, we don’t want that kind of sound. We want the sound more clear. So, if we play, let’s say we play five notes here for example.
[ Music ]
So, only one note ringing at a time. So, without damping, again, I will show you how it sounds.
[ Music ]
Yeah.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah. So, the other reason is so that you can hear that ombak, that shimmer sound. So, if you’re not damping, you won’t be able to appreciate that beating sound that is very much appreciated. It’s kind of a key aesthetic. And you might have noticed in the gong when Dewa was playing that as well, that there is a beating on its own. So, the gong itself is manufactured or made in that way so that it has its own beating without needing another instrument.
[Ryan:] I have a question about that Maisie because you’ve referred back to the original, to the gongs in the back. And Dewa, you were mentioning that they were, I don’t know if the right way to say this is they’re gendered. Or at least there’s a female gong and a male gong. Is that what’s happening here is that we have? How are these instruments divided among the orchestra, and is there always a set of two?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. In Bali, we believe in [foreign word]. It’s a good or bad or high or low. Those kind of thing. It’s about balance here. That’s why we always tune it in two different way because we believe in the beauty. You can make beauty with two differences like that. So, like the, as you mentioned, the gong has a male and female, and the tuning system called ngumbang and ngisep. So, we often pair them together. The two different thing, but when we mix them together, we can create a beauty. So, that’s the concept behind it.
[Maisie Sum:] It’s interesting. Sometimes, we refer to this in the gamelan world as paired tuning. And so, when the instruments start sounding in tune, according to Western ears, it’s actually out of tune for the Balinese ear. And so, we want to maintain a certain beating, like Dewa was saying, throughout the entire gamelan, and often, is it tuned to the gong would you say, or is the gong chosen based on the beating of the instruments? How does that, how is that decided, if I may ask?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] So, these days when we buy a gong, we actually try to match. Because we made the gamelan first, and then we find the gong that match the rest of the ensemble. So, the process of choosing the gong can be quite challenging because it has, we have sort of kind of expectation what kind of gong we would like to have, but also, it has to match the sounds of the rest of the instruments. That’s the challenging part of it. And sometime, it can take days to choose gong for gamelan. So, I and my friend in Bali, I have a good time to choose a gong for our gamelan in my group in the past. So, we pick up the gong, bring it home, and then we don’t like it. We return it, and then we just keeping and doing it until we get what we wanted. But if you have a good gong, you don’t want to use it too often. That’s how we say. We often just keep it in the back, only for special event only. For practising or to teach a kid playing, we don’t use the good gong because it’s very challenging to get one, the one that match your gamelan. That’s how we put it in Bali, actually.
[Maisie Sum:] And even though the technique of playing is particular, I mean, it’s you know, hitting the gong, but there is a sweet spot, and so there’s some gong players, technically, it’s not as challenging, perhaps, as some of the faster paced instruments. But there is a sweet spot. Not everyone can quite get that sweet spot.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] It’s true. Yeah. In Bali, we have a gong player where it call it gong player. They just very good at hitting the gong. It’s not too loud, not too soft. It just the right, the perfect sound. So, they can create that.
[Ryan:] I have a follow up question. It may be quite short. But first I should ask when we have a pair of instruments, what do we call them? Call them a and b, or do they have a certain designation as?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. That’s why in Bali called pengumbang is the lower one. Pengisup is the higher one.
[ Inaudible Comment ]
[ Music ]
[Maisie Sum:] Dewa mentioned that it’s a seven tone gamelan called Samara Dana. And Samara Dana is a new instrument that was created in 19.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] ’80s.
[Maisie Sum:] 1980s that actually amalgamated two different types of instruments. One called the gamelan Gong Kebyar which is a five note scale or five tone gamelan, and then also the Semar Pegulingan which is seven toned gamelan from, you know, centuries ago. So, an old, old instrument. And so, the inventor. I Wayan Beratha
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah. I Wayan Beratha was the inventor of the Samara Dana gamelan, and so he brought those two kind of instruments together and created the Samara Dana. And you know, similar to, you know, what we’re talking about in terms of acquiring the full orchestra, having those seven, the seven tones allows composers to be more innovative and also for pedagogical purposes that you’re able to play the really old pieces from the Semar Pegulingan repertoire, the pieces from Gong Kebyar in the 20th century, and also these newer, modern Kreasi Baru, or new creation pieces. And so, this is the one that we just played is the selisir mode. So, we can yeah. So, it uses these five pitches, the.
[ Music ]
But there are other modes, right Dewa? Did you want to demonstrate?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. Yeah. Because we have two extra note in this instrument, so that’s why we able to play different mode. So, the one you just heard before called selisir mode. And if we, for example, if we change just one note only, it will just, it will change the mode of the scale a lot for us in Bali. So, let’s say, like, the one you just heard before, I play one, two, three, five, six that called selisir. If I played the same thing, but I do one, two, four, five, six. Let me demonstrate the one, two, three, five, six, and then one, two, four, five, six in the, It change sounds a lot, actually. So, at least for me, for us in Bali. So, like this. This is patutan selisir.
[ Music ]
This is patutan tembung.
[ Music ]
So, for example, we want to make a sweet transition by using the same melody, for example. Like.
[ Music ]
Because this two extra note allow us to make a moderation like that. So, the, so another instrument only have five scale, you restricted by this.
[ Music ]
So, that’s why this instrument created. From what I heard, the creator called it Samara Dana which mean, Samara mean beauty. Dana mean richer. So, it’s rich in notes, rich in sound. That’s what this instrument’s meaningful for the creator.
[Ryan:] That’s great. Some of the, you mentioned that there would be some, or that we have a tuning system that seven note means it’s been around for centuries. At least the older kind. That traditional music that would be from, you know, or not newly composed, did it modulate in the same sort of way, or [inaudible].
[Dewa Made Suparta:] No, actually. Only use one mode at a time. For example, let me use.
[ Music ]
The entire piece only going to base on that one only. One, two. Four, five, six. And they just going to use that one or if they use a different mode for example.
[ Music ]
It just going to stay in there. They only use that notes only. But nowadays, people are creating with this kind of ensemble, this kind of instrument, so they can create more modulation. They can mix all the mode in one piece.
[Ryan:] So, for the older traditional music that had a mode of seven notes or if there was a gamelan with seven notes available, would composers be using all seven notes, or would they typically be making a selection of five notes for a mode?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] They making a selection of five note, four note.
[Ryan:] And that’s typical. Is there a reason for that, why the music would only stay within five notes, or?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] The older pieces, for example, was Semar Pegulingan often plays for a dance drama. So, in every dance, in every mode, for us in Bali has a different function. For example, if we need to accompany, let’s say, a minister. It’s a male and strong dance. So, we will use a mode that called tembung. The one that I just showed you before.
[ Music ]
So, we will use that mode. So, yeah, it’s important for me to mention here. So, now, I’m going to demonstrate, it’s the same melody, but it has a different function. The same melody but using a different mode, it can be for a different function like that. For example, as I mentioned, for a minister, for example, this is a strong, male dance. It’s going to be, let’s say.
[ Music ]
So, we’re going to use that mode. So, this is for a minister, for example.
[ Music ]
So, we will use that mode. So, now, use the same melody, but using a different mode can be for a villager, a villager. I mean, like a little bit funny. It’s more like a we call [foreign word]. It’s like a funny thing in Bali, but we use the same melody but in a different mode.
[ Music ]
So, we make a little bit faster using a different mode. And then, yeah. For more traditional pieces, so when we choose a mode, the mode itself has a correlation to what kind of mood that we try to create in there. I hope I say it well there.
[Ryan:] Yeah. That’s very interesting. That’s, yeah, very interesting.
[Maisie Sum:] In Bali, there’s a big, you know, we have instrumental music. You have music for dance, but you also have dance drama. And so, very much, I guess, similar to opera is here or in the Western European world. That’s a large part of their practice as well, and there still are the older traditional instruments that I mentioned Semar Pegulingan and the people continue to use. But many also just use these newer instruments now to play. Right. So, the dance drum I have all these different characters that Dewa mentioned. Not unlike, say, Shakespearean play where you have a jester. So, the villager acts kind of like the jester, and so that music will be symbolic of that particular character. And you know, Balinese people listening will recognize right away by listening to that melody and hearing that mode that that, you know, there’s going to be a villager that’s coming out now soon, too, to talk and sing a bit and dance a bit. And vice versa. So, they’ll know that mode is being played and the minister will enter the scene again, and so forth.
[Ryan:] And so, is it typical even outside of drama that we would have these shared melodies where we would have the same melody and, I guess, this is a sequence of pitches between one and five. I don’t know if I’m explaining that the right way. But we would have these shared melodies that would be transposed into different modes. Is that typical of every genre, or is that just, where would we hear that?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] I think we, you can, we can find this in many different ensemble actually in Bali, the same melody, just in a different mode. And then, they just change the tempo a little bit. I can be for different function like that, for example.
[Maisie Sum:] I was just going to add to Dewa saying how you can find these melodies in different instruments. I also, it brought to mind how similar melodies become transformed when a composer will teach it to a different, let’s say, gamelan ensemble. And so, we’re going back to this idea of tuning. We talked about how the instruments are, you know, tuned in pairs. But I also wanted to mention that all the gamelan are uniquely tuned. Every gamelan ensemble is uniquely tuned. And so, that means there’s no other ensemble that really sounds exactly like the ensemble we have here. And so, even if you start with the same, let’s say, frequency. Everyone has the same thing. It will move and change over time a little bit. But essentially, what happens is Dewa will speak more to this or can speak more to this with regard to how they choose this pitch. But every village gamelan or ensemble might have a slightly different tuning. And they can vary quite a bit by, you know, a whole note or more than. And what happens is, and I’ve read about this, I’ve heard stories, and maybe Dewa can say more as well. Where when a composer comes and is commissioned to teach a piece and/or to teach a piece that they’ve taught to another ensemble, they sometimes might change that piece, and it’ll still go by the same name. And sometimes, as a listener not familiar with it, we might wonder, well, why is it still the same piece? And part of it, from my understanding is that it has to do with how that particular village or group has their instruments tuned. I remember us talking months about that with regards to some of the older pieces.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. One composer, I Wayan Lotring for example. When he was composing a piece called Gamangan for the group in Denpasar and group from Gianyar, he just created two completely different piece, but he call it the same name. Because of the, from what I have read, because of the gamelan in Denpasar tuning is a lot lower than the one in Gianyar, for example. So, he just changed completely his piece, not just the melody, the tempo, the trying to make it just sound like two different pieces, actually. But it’s the same name, the same idea. Just because of the tuning system, the tuning of the gamelan are very different, might be also the player’s technique a bit different. Like that, yeah. You know, when in Bali, when the gamelan tuning is a bit higher, it can sound a bit faster sometimes. When it higher, when the tuning is higher when you play a bit faster, it’s going to sound a bit more clear. When the tuning lower, when you create something a bit slower, it can sound a bit more expanse. So, the tuning very high is sometimes when I play fast, you can hear it very clear. But the low tuning, when you play too fast, it can be a bit blurry like that for us in the way that we hear it in Bali sometimes.
[Ryan:] Well, that strikes two follow up questions for me, and so I can remind you of the second if you want to answer the first one. Maisie, you said that Dewa could speak to why certain villages or certain regions might choose a certain tuning system or way of tuning the gamelan versus one. That would be, I would like to hear you speak to that. I would also like to hear your perspective as a composer when a piece is changed, like you said, to change a melody or to change these parts that we would think are essential for defining a musical unit like a composition, what is it that still makes them the same composition if they sound completely different?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Let me answer your question from the first question first. That how the village decide what tuning to chose. It’s really depending on who’s the leader at that time in the village. For example, like the tuning, I can speak for the gamelan tuning that I have in my group in my house. So, this is based on my uncle. So, the reasons why he choose the tuning like what we have at home, it’s similar to the one that we have here, actually. So, this gamelan was based on the tuning system, the gamelan tuning that I have in my house in Bali. So, this one is the reasons why we choose this one is a bit higher and also a bit closer between one note to another. So, the reason for that, because we have a seven tone, so we can make a modulation more smoothly, at least for our taste and from my family for taste for that one. So, for example, this one.
[ Music ]
[ Singing ]
Some tuning can be a broader.
[ Singing ]
So, they can expand it, so in one note to another, it’s a bit broader. So, in this particular tuning, we actually, we choose a bit closer.
[ Singing ]
So, when we come modulation, it’s going to be sound not too far from one note to another. So, that’s the reason why my uncle choose this tuning, actually. And then, some, from what I heard, because they just do one to play sort of kind of this is only that only required the high tuning, the high tuning gamelan. So, they just choose, oh, let’s just make the gamelan very high. Based on that, who’s the leader, I mean, who’s the leader of the group in that village. Because they usually decide. And sometimes, people just give it like a bland, they just trust the gamelan maker. Okay. Just make whatever, so they’re going to accept. And sometimes, like that. But mostly, these days, people will choose, oh, I want a gamelan similar to that gamelan. So, we choose that often.
[Ryan:] And so, is there a somewhat of a process where the gamelans are becoming more similar to one another, or are they still, or is there still a very large variance in pitch?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] It’s still very large. It’s still very large variety right now, because it just, as Maisie mentioned before, it’s very hard to duplicate a tuning of a gamelan that’s already exists for a long time. It’s a lot of people want to have a gamelan, for example. Like there’s a well-known group in Bali called Gamelan [foreign word]. They have a very high tuning system, high pitched tuning system. And gamelan maker trying to imitate that, but in the end, ten years old metal and the new metal will not sound all the same way. And it doesn’t produce the same sound. So, yeah, people trying to imitate the sort of tuning.
[Maisie Sum:] And there is a certain degree of [inaudible] and you know, that there is a standardization with regard to the newer gamelans that are being made. I think the village gamelans continue to exist, and so there remains that variety of the different types of tuning. But the newer ones, or maybe particularly the ones that come to North America might be a little bit more standardized. Would you say that, too, Dewa, or?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. For practical reason. For example, like this gamelan tuned the same way as my gamelan in my house. So, just in case one key broken, it’s easier for me to get another replacement. I just, the note number seven the same as my gamelan at home. I want to mention, so the it called petuding. What is that? The way that the gamelan maker make the tuning is by using a bamboo called petuding. Yeah. So, that one is like it’s a piece of bamboo. At least this is in the past. So, they use that. It’s a piece of bamboo, and sound like.
[ Singing ]
So, they will sort of, you know, over time, bamboo can change. So, for example, like ten years old bamboo not sound the same anymore like when it new. So, if you order the same gamelan, I want that gamelan. So, the tuning is already changed, so of course, the gamelan maker will make like what he has.
[Ryan:] The tuning that you’ve chosen, I think speaks to a kind of a practical nature of modulating which is interesting. What other reasons, why would somebody choose a different tuning system that might be with larger gaps between notes or with a different set of notes?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] If I think just taste. I cannot speak for other people, but from what I heard from another village that close to my village just because of the taste. They just like gamelan that has a lower tuning so they can play more piece called lalambatan in Bali. That’s a slower tempo piece. Like there for some villager, they like to play a little bit more slower pieces, so they choose the tuning that a bit lower. Sometimes just that.
[Ryan:] As in the tuning might kind of reflect the repertoire of pieces that they prefer to play or, yeah?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. Yes. One type of gamelan called Gong Gede in Bali. It means the big ensemble, is about require about 60 people to play it. And actually, the tuning is very low. It can be like one note lower than this one. So, this one is.
[ Music ]
[ Singing ]
Can be that low the tuning. It’s almost, yeah. That’s one note lower. It can be two sometimes. The, and the piece usually very slow for this kind of gamelan, and they don’t play interlocking similar to this one, but they just most of the instruments playing a melody. And some of them are playing more one note every beat. Some of them one note every two beats. And some instrumentally play one note every four beat, and it just expand like that. But it’s usually the tuning is very low for that kind of instrument.
[Ryan:] I would like to return to the second question, if I could, which was composer would have the same piece but be changing it drastically. So, the question is whether there is an exact answer or at least from your perspective as a composer, what is it when a composer will change some aspects like the melody so drastically they sound different. What is it that makes them the same piece?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] It’s actually the skeleton of the piece as, are the same.
[Ryan:] So, it’s just the skeletal melody, and then it would be what other parts of it that change?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] The variation of it change, and then the ornamentation of it and the tempo, the, it just make everything sound completely different piece, but actually the skeleton of it are the same.
[Ryan:] Interesting. And so, would members of the culture recognize the pieces the same, or is that also something that most people recognize as something different? [Dewa Made Suparta:] In Bali, when one particular piece composed for certain village, they just call it, oh, this is let’s say this is that style. They call it a style Denpasar. Or this is style Singaraja. Like that, for example. It’s the piece become like identity where it from, like that, for example. For example, there is a Kebyar Duduk in, the piece called Kebyar Duduk is from west region of Bali, and then there’s a Kebyar Duduk created in east region of Bali. So, they are both Kebyar Duduk composed by the same composer but just the variation of it very different. Like that.
[Ryan:] That’s interesting. So, the identity of the sound is bound to or is informed by the tuning and by the kinds of choices that are based on scales and the instruments available. I’m just, maybe I’m making more of a comment. I can see a lot of connections there between something that’s musical and repertoire and the identity of a particular area.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. I think also important to mention here because what happen often, the piece also taught by the composer itself. That’s why they able to do that. So, it’s nothing written down, and then, so usually the composer the one who teach it directly. So, they just, they change the piece all the time from one spot to another spot, depending on the context, depending on the tuning of the gamelan, and also because of the ability of the musician to play the piece. Then, for at least for myself, if I compose something, if I see the musician is very good, for example, I’m going to try to use their ability. What can I do best for them? What they can, what I mean like, what kind of thing that they can do best, you use that as, take advantage of that for your piece. For example, if it on the other side, if you have the player not that skilful, you will try to work something around it, how to make your piece sound nice with limited kind of technique. So, like, as a composer in Bali, we work with those kind of, we work with those kind of aspect a lot, actually. So, we just based on what we have in front of us, that’s how we work around it.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah, it seems like in Bali, the composers are very adaptable, you know, based on a particular context that you’re seeing, Ryan, in the situation. That the key is to, Dewa was saying in the beginning to make a piece sound beautiful. And so, that beautiful, the beauty can manifest in these different ways, depending on the different skill levels, different tuning, also different style of playing. And so, you know, from north Bali to south Bali, you know, often there is this difference in the way they play, their technique of playing. And it’s not to say it’s a good or, you know, bad. It’s just a different way of articulating or interpreting music.
[Ryan:] I like that a lot. I just want to say I think that way of thinking is something we all can learn from, the very inclusive nature of being musical and making something happen with what we have available is a great way to think about making music together.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. Actually, the composer in Bali, they actually sing the piece first before they teaching it. So, they kind of have some kind of expectation before they arrive where they teach. As I mentioned before, all gamelan slightly different tuning. So, what you think at home by singing on your voice, it’s not going to sound the same when you get there. So, in that case, at least for myself, I would tweak something to make it work, sounds like what I expect in that, for that particular gamelan. So, yeah, the composer in Bali often see those kind of situation. So, they have to adapt themselves. They have to adapt their composition according to tuning system and the certain way of people playing the instrument from that particular group like that. So, let me give an example, for example. This tuning, I’m very comfortable with this tuning because I hear this in my house 24/7 pretty much. So, when I singing a gamelan, my tune was just stuck.
[ Music ]
So, I just get used to this kind of tuning and also because it’s easy, it’s very comfortable for my voice. So, some village might be have a lower tuning system, and they get used to that kind of tuning. So, let’s say if I compose a melody here, for example.
[ Music ]
So, for this gamelan work for me. Let’s say now, if the gamelan tuning is.
[ Music ]
[ Singing ]
Maybe that doesn’t sound nice. Let’s just change it. Instead of.
[ Music ]
You move a note higher.
[ Music ]
So, it just trick a little bit to make it work. But what happen often is the, we were surrounding it by you didn’t want to change the melody. We just change the ornamentation of it and change the dynamic and the tempo of it. It can make a big difference between what we thought and what we can do on the spot. Like that, for example.
[Ryan:] And so, as a composer, are those kinds of decisions when you’re doing that as part of the teaching and developing the composition, are those kinds of things planned out, and then handed down to the performers? Or are those things improvised on the spot?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Usually planned from home, but what we change on the spot sometimes that is just spontaneously. And that happen quite often, actually. Yeah. One particular composer in Bali, for example, like my teacher in the past when I was at university. He pretty much composed like in front of us. It’s not even prepared. He just like mimicking something in front of us like.
[ Singing ]
And then, he just stopped teaching us on the front. But in that case, you have to have a very good musician. The musician have to have a very good memory. They have to have a good memory in order to memorize what the composer idea that time. Because it’s, they just teach you there. You have to get it right away. Otherwise, it is going to be gone already. That’s the good thing, these days, with all the technology that we have. Like we have recorder because it’s like myself for example, if I have an idea, I just use my phone, and I just sing it. And later, I play it back because that kind of idea can just disappear in the blink of an eye. You’re not going to remember anymore like that. Yeah. So, also, some composer in Bali write down their stuff, but the more traditional composer, they actually sing it first and then write it down. That written down is not all the detail. It just maybe just the skeleton. And the rest of it is just they going to compose it on the spot like that, for example.
[Maisie Sum:] And sometimes, it’s almost like the, again, picking up on the strength of the musicians. It’s almost like something like that is spontaneously done because it’s created with the musicians and what they’re able to bring to that skeleton melody. So, what they hear and what they think might sound good. So, sometimes, it’s almost like a collaborative composition in some ways, and also in the way that the composer, some composers, I should say, rely on, like Dewa was saying, the memory of the musicians to retain it. I remember playing in Bali, and there was this amazing, amazing composer, but he did not have a memory for even his own pieces, and he would say that straight out. And say that he’s counting on us because he won’t remember the next time. And so, there is an onus placed on musicians by certain composers, not all.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah, that particular composer actually is like when he composed for certain group, his piece can be very amazing and can be, if you, if there is not that good group playing his piece can be not that good. Because of they just cannot memorize what his idea is that. So, the musician have to be like very quick to memorize everything. To memorize the composer’s idea in that context.
[Ryan:] And so, are all of the parts that are in the gamelan, I know that, and I’m thinking of the video that you made. You described some parts as melody, which I think were either skeletal melodies or, you know, melodic lines. You used some terms that were ornamentation. You used one that was called kotekan and another one that was kilitan. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Kilitan, yes. Kilitan.
[Ryan:] So, of those different parts or, and I’m sure that there’s more, this part where there’s the exchange between the performer and the composer. Is it for all of the parts, or for some of them, and which ones?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] The whole thing, pretty much. Yeah, because we, as you seen in the video demonstration is between one instrument and the other actually is linked. So, there is a connection between one to the other. So, when the composer has an idea between they create the melody first, for example, and the melody player have to memorize that part right away on the spot. And then, based on that, that he can develop his composition on the spot. Because he already memorized it, okay, and then while you’re repeating it, and then the composer come out with new idea sometimes. Because the process of teaching it, it’s important for me to mention, might be they break it up into like eight-beat cycle only. And then, they add another eight-beat cycle. So, while you learn that eight-beat cycle, and then they ask you to, let’s repeat. And while you’re repeating, while you repeat the part that he just did, he just taught. And then, he can think about a new idea how to make an ornamentation based on this melody right now. So, sometimes myself, for example, when I teach, that, I’m in that situation quite often, actually. So, I teach the, let’s say my student an eight-beat cycle, and let’s repeat until you memorize it. While they’re repeating that section, and then I’m thinking about I should do this now with the other instruments. So, yeah. The, we, in Bali, we work with this kind of situation often. That’s why the good, the musician has a good memory, but it important for us in Bali. It has to be. So, yeah. Otherwise, it’s you have to write down your piece. You cannot create thing on the spot because it’s going to take too much time to create something.
[Ryan:] That’s great. Maybe we could move on to some of these questions about tempo changes and. [Dewa Made Suparta:] Okay.
[Ryan:] Accelerandos and so, if you would, if you wouldn’t mind maybe switching over to the drum. [Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah.
[Ryan:] So, what’s the name of the drum, how is it played, and what’s the relationship between or how is it used to signal tempo changes?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. This drum called kendang in Balinese. So, the basic technique of playing it is we use the left hand to make sound which is closed here.
[ Drumbeat ]
Like that. And the bigger one played.
[ Drumbeat ]
One moment. We should have to repeat. The drum is too high right now.
[ Drumbeats ]
There you go. So, yeah, so yeah. This is called kendang. It’s as I mentioned in video demonstration, it’s the leader of the gamelan. So, the drum will give a cue to change in dynamic and tempo. It can be by using a pattern or body language in order to give a cue to the rest of the musician. So, we’re going to use Gilak as an example, an eight-beat cycle here, and then how do we give a cue for the rest of the musician to get loud, for example, here. So, in this context, because an eight-beat cycle, we’re going to be.
[ Music ]
And then, the rest of the musician usually get loud on the gong. So, they’re going to get louder. Gong. So, then, and the cue have to be before that. That’s where the drum come in to give a cue for that one. So, let’s see. If a play a regular pattern, it’s like called Gilak.
[ Singing ]
So, if I’m going to give a cue, it’s going to be.
[ Singing ]
And everyone gets loud on the gong. It’s like that. So, let’s demonstrate that right now. Three and four and.
[ Music ]
And everyone get loud in that gong cycle.
[Ryan:] Is there a term? What are those called, the patterns that you’re using and the variant patterns?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] It called Gilak pattern this one. So, the skeleton of it is three and four and.
[ Music ]
But when we play it in context, we’re not just going to play it plain like that. We’re going to add the, every time there’s a gap, we add a little bit. We call it [foreign word] in Bali which mean it’s not the, it child. [Foreign word] mean child. So, we cannot play drum like this in Bali.
[ Drumbeat ]
We will play it.
[ Drumbeats ]
That is too clean. So, instead, we’re going to play.
[ Drumbeats ]
So, it will never be.
[ Drumbeat ]
Like that, but usually when we want to make the note da is going to be.
[ Drumbeats ]
So, we add the de before the da. So, for example, we’re going to play.
[ Singing ]
Like that. Three and four and.
[ Music ]
[Ryan:] And so, what kind of pattern would you play if you were going to be changing tempo?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] If I want to change tempo, I, not the pattern that make the, in the Gilak, so we just play it louder, and everyone will get loud. If we want to play faster, in this context, depending what pattern that we play. So, in this context, I’m using my left hand. So, I just go ahead of the beat. Okay. Let’s, as an example here. If I want to play regular beat. If I want to keep the beat steady, this what I’m going to do. Three and four and.
[ Music ]
So, if I want to speed it up, three. I’m going to try to go ahead of the beat a little bit intentionally like this. Three and four and.
[ Music ]
So, I’m using the pattern and also a body language try to push it. Let me demonstrate it again. Three and four and.
[ Music ]
So, if I want to be softer, so I just use my body language like that.
[Ryan:] What other kind of things do you do as a drummer to lead the ensemble? [Dewa Made Suparta:] So, for example, to start a piece, maybe you’ve seen, yeah to start a piece, we use a drum or usually give a cue for the rest of the musicians to just to pick up the mallet. So, we just.
[ Drumbeat ]
Very subtle, and then the rest of the musicians will pick up their mallet like that. And then, another gesture, for example. To play, let’s say we wanted to play faster, similar to when I played here before. I’m going to use a gesture like that to play go faster, go faster. Let me show you a little bit as an example. Let’s play the regular pattern. This is when I, in context, if I play as solo drum, not with a mallet. So.
[ Drumbeat ]
I’m using my hand. So, three and four and.
[ Music ]
So, that’s to get loud. Now, if I want to, if I would like to speed up the tempo, let’s keep it steady first. Three and four and.
[ Music ]
[Ryan:] And so, are you speeding up the tempo, or is that all that you’re doing for a gesture to signal those changes, or is there anything else happening? You mentioned the body language as well.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. To change in tempo and also changing in dynamic. Sometime, I’m using, I use, we use a lot of this tune, tuning the pak in order to make the tempo speed up or slow down or to make dynamic louder or softer. And also it follow by the body langue as well. So, for example, this is if we wanted to speed up, so I will use my body like.
[ Drumbeats ]
Like that. To speed it up, and if I wanted to make it to slow it down.
[ Drumbeats ]
So, to slow it down, and to make it loud.
[ Drumbeats ]
So, sometimes, they’re going to get loud in there. And if I want to make it softer.
[ Music ]
Somethings like that.
[Maisie Sum:] And it’s a lot of rehearsal together to really get the timing right. One of the key things, too, in playing in the ensemble in my own learning is just always kind of starting together on time, breathing together, exhaling together. So, you know, even when we finish a gesture, if what you watch Balinese gamelan performers, you know, they end at the same time. So, everything is choreographed, but in a way that is natural or seems natural to me because of the, you know, intensive rehearsals that they have. Like Dewa was saying, before they perform.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. Yeah. Also, important for me to mention here, so the way that I give a cue with the people that I play for long time. The player that I grow up with, it’s very subtle. Sometimes, if you not familiar with the music, you can even notice that I am, that we actually giving a cue. But very different when I teach, let’s say, a student here, for example. My cue have to be very clear. So, what I’m showing you before, that is more like the exaggerate version of what we’re doing in Bali, but when I teach here, my cue will be like what I just demonstrate before. And to get loud.
[ Drumbeat ]
So, very loud and very, you can see it very clear. But if I play with my group, it sounds like I’m playing a pattern, but it doesn’t look like a cue.
[ Drumbeats ]
That’s already loud beat because we practice a lot. So, just very little, subtle cue that you give. They just, they will respond it very well. That’s, yeah. From one player to another player can be very different cue as well. So, this is the way that I give a cue.
[Howard:] You know, tuning is so important, and you know the actual pitches are so important. I was just wondering about who makes the gamelan, and because it’s so important, do they have a special status in Balinese society?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yes. The only people, maybe you might know. We still have a caste system in Bali which is a Brahmana, Kshatriyas, Wesia, and Sudra. So, like, this kind of social symbolism in the past, and then even these days, we still use that system. But the pande, the gamelan maker, or the, they also make other type of metal thing. So, they only particular kind of people can make gamelan in Bali. So, that is called pande caste in Bali. Their house is, they the only family allowed to have a fire, a big fire in order to melt the metal. So, it has to be a special type of a family in order to make the gamelan. So, I’m not allowed to build that in my house, at least for what it used to in the culture. Yeah. So, I’m not allowed to melt the metal in my house. It’s not the right thing to do, and also it can be very hot. In Bali, the weather is already very hot, and then if you boil something like try to melt metal in your house can be very hot. So, yeah. So, their house is usually equipped for melting metal. So, it’s only, yeah. It’s a one type of caste in Bali making the gamelan called pande.
[Maisie Sum:] I was going to say but the pande, the gamelan maker, also their house is distinct. Right. They have a particular colour or gate.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Red usually. Their house is colour in red. The gate is red already. So, yeah.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah. So, they do have a, I would say, a special status in society in that their houses, the gates. So, in Bali, people live in house compounds. And so, every house compound usually will have a, you know, a gate and a wall around that perimeter. And so, you can recognize in a village if that village has a pande by the red coloured wall.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. Usually brick. Their wall is made of brick. That is red, so yeah.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah, and so this is, so then, because of this and of course the secrets of the blacksmith or gamelan makers are passed on from one generation to the next.
[Howard:] Do they do that with families, or can anybody do it?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Within the family.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah, so it’s a lineage.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. A lineage. Yeah. Yeah, sorry.
[Maisie Sum:] No, go ahead.
[Dewa Made Suparta:] I can learn how to tune it, but I don’t think in Bali people will appreciate that, actually. Because I’m not from that caste.
[Maisie Sum:] Yeah. And we met with, of course, the gamelan maker and even had some conversations with them about the tuning. And there’s certain things that they, I think, were pretty up front in saying that they can’t say or can’t share with us. And so, it still is a tradition that’s, it’s very, you know, private and maintained only within their lineage. And actually, the gong makers are different than the gamelan makers. Some gamelan makers make gongs, too. Do they?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] Yeah. But in Bali, they only make the small one for the reyong only. But most of the gong these days is from Java, actually.
[Ryan:] Why is that?
[Dewa Made Suparta:] I think it’s big and very big, and then maybe we don’t have a source of metal in Bali. All the raw material is come from Java. So, it’s issue for them to get the access from there. Yeah.