Transcript: Afro-Cuban Music

[Howard Spring:] Thanks for joining us Mags. Can you — Can we start off just by you telling us something about yourself. Where you’re from? Anything you want to say about your background? How you learnt to play? Anything else, what you’re up to now?

[Magdelys Savigne:] All right. How much time do we have? No, kidding, kidding.

[Howard Spring:] We got time. We got time.

[Magdelys Savigne:] So my name is Magdelys Savigne Careon. I am from Cuba, originally. Now I live in Canada. I’ve been here eight years now. I love it here. But well, I’m still Cuban, born and raised. And I’m a percussionist. I studied classical percussion. That was the main thing. And then I actually did the popular — this is called popular percussion or folkloric percussion from Cuba, like you don’t study that. In school, it’s only classical training. And then once you finish school, you can actually learn — if you’re not learning since the beginning, right, how to play congas. I don’t know if you’ve seen the congas. And this instrument that I have right here.

[Howard Spring:] And that’s called what, the instrument that you have there.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Bata It’s called bata, bata drums. It’s a very religious instrument, mostly played by men. Mostly? Yes. Allowed to play by men. Women are not allowed to play them. But these ones are artistic. So I do play them.

[Howard Spring:] OK. So when you say they’re religious. What do you mean? What religion and how do they fit into that?

[Magdelys Savigne:] So they are religious from the Santeria religion. It’s — It comes from the Yoruba, Western Africa. That those are those slaves that went to Cuba. But the religion that they brought — of course, they weren’t allowed to bring their own instruments or anything, or even allowed to practice their religion openly and their traditions. But they were allowed one day a year and the other day is, which is January six to do their own carnival. It was like a carnival. So they could — They have to create their instruments and a whole new set of traditions because that’s what they could do in Cuba. And these are the instruments like they are from Cuba even though in Africa, we see many cultures, Nigerian culture that they have, the bata. Very close to the bata, but the ones that the Santeria religion plays is from Cuba.

[Howard Spring:] OK. That’s great. So when you finished your formal training and classical percussion, you learn the bata. Did you just — Did you have someone that you studied with? Or did you just pick it up by hanging around and trying it out?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Huh, tricky. Thanks for the question. Well, actually, I didn’t finish the training because I finished when I was at the university when I was 21. I started playing the Bata when I was seven, eight-years-old. And it was very hard for me to find a teacher because no one would teach a girl to play these drums. So it was very, very secretive but only boys could be allowed to learn the drum, even for religious parties or not. Women are not encouraged to play this instrument. So unless you sing or dance, you’re fine. But if you are a percussionist if you play this instrument, you’re not allowed. So I found a teacher, a Maestro Ventura [assumed spelling], like he passed a few years ago. And he was the only one willing to teach me because I used to go to the rehearsals from the folkloric company that he used to belong. It wasn’t an ensemble that used to play Afro-Cuban traditions, right? So I used to skip school. This is wrong. Well, I used to skip school just to go there and watch them rehearse. See the dancers, the singers and then this drum just got my eye. I used to be a pianist at school. I was studying piano back then not percussion. And then I just fell in love with the Bata and I wanted to learn. So I — Every day I was there seeing how they were playing it. Why they were doing? What they were singing. And one day this person just comes to me that Ventura. And he told me, what are you doing here? You know, the girls aren’t supposed to be here, right? I’m like, yeah, I know. But I’m really like this instrument. And he’s like, are you serious? And I’m like, yes. So he is like, let’s see what you can do. So he called me inside. He gave me this little one called okonkolo. And he’s like let’s see what you can do, just like that. And I was there like every day for some reason I had something in my head. He was playing and I was playing with him. And then he’s like, mm-hmm, all right. I’ll see you tomorrow in my home at midday. So come see me and then we’re going to start lessons. But just like that. Some stranger, that I had to talk to my mom and like convinced her at seven-years-old that that’s what I wanted to do, which was hard. So it was a long process after that, but I just wanted to play them so badly that I did. And I continue piano because that’s what my mom wanted. So I graduated from piano and then I started percussion because that’s the main career that you have to do with the percussion. So I just started doing both until I just left alone with the percussion. That’s it.

[Howard Spring:] Great. Is that — is it different now in Cuba do you think when it comes to women playing these or it’s still the same women don’t play those drums?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Well, it did better now for women to play percussion. So back in my day, I was one of the few women in Cuba playing percussion. Trust me. And I’ve known and I’ve heard many women like the lady of percussion [foreign language] like she used to play bata, Naile, Obini Bata. So those are bands that they are pro-women playing this instrument, but still they are not allowed. They get a lot of criticism. But nowadays it’s better for percussion. Congas, drums, now it’s better but this remains a taboo for women especially in religious parties.

[Howard Spring:] Right. OK. Well, let’s hear what they sound like. Do you want to just demonstrate them?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Sure. Well, I mean, yeah, sure. Why not, why not? So this huge guy over here it’s called iya or mother. It sounds very deep. [Drumming]. Then you got this middle one called itotele. So it answers whatever called the mother’s playing. So, [drumming], it sounds like a medium pitch one. And the little one is called okonkolo. It means little one. And it keeps the beat generally. OK? [Drumming]. So they each have their own technique to play them and yeah, they sound like this together. They’re played by three people. But I have next time to play them by myself. So this is called ibalo — I mean, this is lalubanche and this token is a lalubanche from Elegua.

[ Drumming ]

[ Chanting ]

That’s the lalubanche. That’s a chant from Elegua. It is one of the deities from the Yoruba continent.

[Howard Spring:] Can you just maybe swivel those drums around and talk about the technique that you’re using on each one?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Of course, I can.

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] So here. It’s like modelling. Its great [laughter]. So there are three of them. Like I said before they’re played by three people, but I arranged them to be played by myself. So this huge one called iya needs to be play with a whole hand. So they each have their own technique to be played with. So we got this. [Drumming]. To get that booming sound, you need that. [Drumming]. And then you have the itotele, the middle one. And you use the same technique as if you were using a conga, the open sound. [Drumming] To bring that sound also so you got, iya, itotele. So, the little one okonkolo which mean little. You just play with the tip of your fingers. So, [drumming]. Just like that. So we got this, this and this. That’s it.

[ Drumming ]

And the other side — oh, wait, before I go to the other side, let me show you this. These are different because they are called Bata Cajon. So they’re slightly different. I’ll show you the actual Bata how they look like. But this it’s called Bata Cajon and they are new-ish, like a few years ago designed by Valter, a percussionist from Sweden. And they are great for tutoring and packing unpacking. Is very — it’s only one case. You don’t need to carry the three cases plus a stand, anything. So everything comes in one case, which is amazing. So, you use this magnet actually to tune them. So let me show you how it works. So you got this itotele [drumming]. And it sounds like that now were like it, right? But then you move the magnet and it changes the sound just like that. Or very high [drumming] if you want it really high. I like it, [Drumming]. Not too high. The same with your okonkolo. [Drumming]. This switches the sound, same thing. Same with iya. You just move that and it change the pitch so, that this side called mouth, the mouth and the one that talks. We got this side. That is called chacha. The chacha is chacha because of the sound it makes. Cha, cha, cha. So it’s similar to the slob with the congas. [Drumming]. Also they have different pitch.

[ Drumming ]

And is used to feeling on the, whatever the mouth is saying. These are — I mean if these are — if you think about that. If these are the vowels, they will be the consonants. So those — They together create the words, right? So imagine that rhythm that I just play and I have to put it apart like now the arrangement that I just made. Let’s see with the iya, you will do the calling first.

[ Drumming ]

You see? So there’s a space there. What happened with the rhythm? We need a little bit more, right? So we got the itotele doing this.

[ Drumming ]

It’s a little bit full. I’m still missing that booming sound from —

[ Drumming ]

That would be two of them. So we’re still missing one more and — which is the okonkolo keeping the beat. So we need that. [Drumming]. So with the itotele. That’s why I do this on the chacha to create that, yeah, from the okonkolo, right?

[ Drumming ]

And then the booming.

[ Drumming ]

So it feels like there’s more people involved, right? It’s only one person. And of course, nothing beats to have three people with, you know, six arms doing this. But well, you got to do what you got to do. And do the best you can. So, plus this thing in which is very hard with all that syncopation happening. So yeah. So that’s this. Let me show you if I can, right? Howard, is that OK. I’ll show you the real Bata how it look like. So these are the religious ones. Of course, they’re not religious in case I get into trouble. OK. So this is the itotele. This is the middle one from the real deal Bata. So you see they have no metal. There’s no metal involved. This just skin that you just pull when it gets kind of wet. So you wet this, and then you just pull, pull, pull, and you get that. You see the sticks, that’s what you use as the keys in order to hold that and change the sound. Hear that? So look at this. So they look like this. Now they have designs that they do this and they put them into the ones with the keys that I’m going to show you next. Just to make them look very traditional. But these are the traditional ones. OK? The chacha. Well, this is very out of tune. But you see it’s very — its handcraft, everything. These drums have to be handcraft. And they have a ceremony to give birth to the drums also. So the best players from the country are called into Matanzas, which is one city like two hours from Havana. And they are called there in order to give birth to the drum and it’s a beautiful ceremony where they play the newly made Bata.

[Howard Spring:] Who makes them? Who makes them? Is this specialized, are there special drum makers? That’s what they do?

[Magdelys Savigne:] [Inaudible] makers do them. I mean, people with the tradition of doing the drums, making the drums. So, people who know how to make those. The same people who used to make the Cuban congas. In Cuba there is no — they cannot be knowing the industrial thing involved, you see, its handcraft. The wood is specifically picked [foreign language]. I mean, it’s a tree. I don’t know how to say it in English. And the skin, it has to be animal skin because it’s what brings life to the drum. And it needs a special ceremony because before you put the skin on to close it inside in it needs another saint that it’s a one of — another deity that goes inside the drums that needs to give a soul to the drummer. I mean, that’s what is believed on the religion. So it’s not just the drum. That’s why this one has nothing inside. But the real ones do have a saint inside or a stone or a special thing inside that makes them religious. And you want to be clean to play down. I mean, it’s a whole process. Clean as in men clean. Women are dirty, I guess. These are the artistic Bata. The ones that I’m sure people have seen on TV, on YouTube and all that. So, also different. These ones have keys. I will show you. Chacha same. [Drumming]. They sound different, right? So this another itotele, but the artistic one, you see just the real thing. The same wood, nothing inside. You have these keys because they are not religious and the skin of course, it’s very important in both sides. So you have that sand clock sort of shape. And you put them in your legs. And you play them. I mean, I played to this side because I played them left-handed. But people actually do this to the right side, and they play on the right side. If you’re left-handed you played on the left side. The big mouth.

[Howard Spring:] OK. So the difference between a religious one and non-religious ones is what’s inside? Is that right?

[Magdelys Savigne:] What’s inside and how do they look like, also. You won’t find religious drums with keys to tune them or wrench.

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] There’s no industrial thing happening, just craft. It’s got to be religious people making them with a long tradition of making the drums. And then the Babalawo or the high priests has to come and put the saints inside and sing the songs accordingly to that certain story to give birth to the drum.

[Howard Spring:] That’s very interesting, actually. Can we go back just –

[Magdelys Savigne:] They don’t broke.

[Howard Spring:] Can you go back to the piece that you were playing and singing. What kind of peace was that?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Well, it — this is one of the chants that for Elegua. Elegua is the first deity that we sing on the religion. It’s the — I mean, its syncretized — I say syncretized because as I told you before, the slaves weren’t allowed to sing their traditions or the songs or anything. Practice their religion. So what they did was behind the master’s back, they were worshipping their white gods with black names. So they were taken to mass and everything. And they were saying oh yes, that’s a — I don’t know. It’s a god, we called Orula. Yes, that’s Saint Anthony that’s Elegua. All right. That Saint Barbara yes, that’s Shango in our head. So it became part of the tradition just to believe in both religions basically. But yes, they are the white gods but we believe in the black gods with the black names and different stories and Oshun, Yemoja which is the sea is Mercedes, like Mercedes St. and the Virgin Mary, which is Oshun, the one that gives birth. And yeah, every single one have their own story. Oya, the warrior. Shango is the another warrior guy, god of thunders. So we do have a god of thunder also for, Thor. So it’s called Shango, one of Cuban religion, and they dress in their own patterns. Shango in this case, dresses in white and red. Oshun as yellow. Yemoja is blue. Las Mercedes or Obatala. It could be male or female. And they — he dresses or she dresses in white.

[Howard Spring:] Do the deities have their own rhythms?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yes, they all have their own paths. Sometimes they interlock. And that’s why sometimes on the singing and the rhythm, so you can hear very similar rhythm pattern, or a word, or something, named across to the other deity because they actually interlocked. They met each other at some point in history. So they used to be human like the Nordic gods, same thing.

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Like all the antique gods. And so, they all have their own paths, their own singing, their own chants, their own dances, and their own playing, their own rhythm.

[Howard Spring:] Can you play an example of the different rhythms that would go along with certain deities –

[Magdelys Savigne:] Sure.

[Howard Spring:] — or certain chants and rhythms, whatever?

[Magdelys Savigne:] OK. Yeah. Sure. For instance, that one that I played, it was an Elegua. Elegua is red and black. It’s like a kid. Like a very naughty kid. And is the first and last that you play for the party otherwise, its chaos in the party. That’s a lalubanche. It’s one of the stories. You got Yemoja, for instance. [Drumming]. The Yakota.

[ Drumming ]

[ Chanting ]

That’s Yemoja. That’s the one for the ocean. And she dances to this. This story is very fun. This story is very nice because she was taking care of a town and she was giving water to the town and somebody stole it. So that’s what he’s talking about in this story. Of course, we don’t know the right translation like, word for word of what we’re saying. But we know the stories behind it. This ancient, nobody speaks like that anymore.

[Howard Spring:] What language is it in?

[Magdelys Savigne:] It’s Yoruba.

[Howard Spring:] Yoruba. OK.

[Magdelys Savigne:] That’s right. But many things got mixed. That’s why it’s called Santeria religion because many things — it was, you know — back in the colony time, colonial times. All black were the same. So when they were brought to the New World, they were put all together the same ships. So there was no like, OK, people from the Yoruba tribe, you go there. People from the Bantu go there. Like people Arawak go here, like no. So it was like, oh, there — black people are the same. They just put them together and then let’s sell them and everything. So many religions, many tribes got mixed, and that’s what gave colour now. I mean, we’ve got to get a positive thing out of that of course. It gave colour to the religion and that’s why it’s called Santeria because it has many words from Congo. It had — it has many words from Benin It has many words from the Yoruba tribe. So some Nigerians might understand what we’re saying, but it’s like a very ancient Nigeria language of prayer. So –

[Howard Spring:] That’s interesting.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah, yeah.

[Howard Spring:] Can you play another example?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Sure. So that was a Yemoja. We got Oya for instance.

[ Drumming ]

This is the war calling.

[ Drumming ]

[ Chanting ]

May dances go with that. That’s a calling for war to Oya, just St. Teresa, I think it’s called. But Oya, this is the warrior lady. She goes to war. That’s her chant for war. So not a very sad war. What I mean it depends how you look at it. But that was a [inaudible]. We got what else? Oh, do Orula. So the chant to the main god began.

[ Drumming ]

[ Chant ]

So that’s for Orula, the deity, the main deity. So we have Orula, Oricha, Olodumare, the sky, the sun, and the Holy Spirit. Same thing about Orula. That’s different from [inaudible]. Who else? Oh, Oshun. Why not?

[ Drumming ]

This is Orisha.

[ Drumming ]

[ Chanting ]

So we got to stop for Oshun. Like it’s very rhythmic already. This is like a party sort of toke. We call it toke or just rhythm. And not only Oshun uses it. Like many, many deities dance to this sound. They all gathered together with this sort of rhythm.

[Howard Spring:] Mags, when you learn a piece or when you learn what you were playing. What do you actually learning? Do you learn each drum separately and then put the beats together? How do you do that?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yes, that’s mandatory. You have to know what each of them play. So you start with a little one, with the okonkolo. And you have to do the whole auto cycle which is the auto cycle is like the whole ceremonial path from all the auditions. You have to know every single Orisha, Orisha path. Orisha is the deity from the Afro-Cuban religion. So you have to learn one by one starting with Elegua ending with Oduduwa. So all 21 saints, you have to learn one by one, one by one drum as well. So, everything on the okonkolo. Everything on itotele. Everything on the iya, at the end. It’s a lot.

[Howard Spring:] Sure. It sounds like a lot. So, is that — so let’s say you’re starting with the first one and you’re doing it on the smallest drum? Are there a series of different rhythms or there’s one rhythm that goes with that drum with that deity?

[Magdelys Savigne:] So, it depends. This particular drum has different beatings for each song — in each one of the paths of each one of the Orishas. So it’s a lot.

[Howard Spring:] Yeah.

[Magdelys Savigne:] It’s not like you can play just this for everybody all the time. No, it’s like — it’s different for Elegua. And then you can divide the — that chant — the oto, for instance. Let’s take Elegua which is the first one that you play for. You do the latopa. It’s called Latopa, the main prayer for Elegua. And then you have to — it has like six calls and you have to answer the six calls. So five, six call and you have to answer them. You have to know each called. What does it do in the — in that particular one? The call number one is similar to call number two because if we say only the okonkolo you can do one, two, three, four, one.

[ Drumming ]

That’s one. When the next call comes if you’re learning like that it’s the same thing but in another beating because the iya change and switch key — not key, time signature. So you have to — you keep doing this but the feeling is different. And so basically the same thing for calling number one and calling number two, but is not. Then you got calling number three and is different. So is not bepa, bepa, bepa [drumming]. So it will be [drumming]. So it’s there like eight note now. It’s not deda, deda. Like there is no three, no more. It’s more of a two, fourish sound like it’s accommodated. And then the last one is very fast, then you got another one that is.

[ Drumming ]

But you know — you have to know what each drum is doing in order to enter at the right time, the right spot.

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] So why don’t we knowing what to play and when to play it.

[Howard Spring:] Because all of these rhythms interlock, right? Like you say they have two optimal ways when to come in.

[Magdelys Savigne:] A [inaudible] on you come in. Because they all telling a different story. They’re all telling something different. That I mean, in the drumming, sort of talking. They talk to each other. For instance, in that one Elegua starts with a calling from the mother.

[ Drumming ]

This one response.

[ Drumming ]

Then — [drumming]. That’s when you come in. So they together —

[ Drumming ]

So it’s like very — they all talk to each other is very — it’s different. It’s different when you play with three people. It’s different when I have to, like read out the whole rhythm in order to make –

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] — it sounds similar to that. Yeah, because then otherwise, there will be spaces. If I don’t fill in with a chacha, there’ll be spaces and it will sound like someone is trying to play that rhythm and it’s not doing it properly.

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] It’s more like there’s three people.

[Howard Spring:] Right. Is any of this improvised?

[Magdelys Savigne:] No.

[Howard Spring:] No. OK. So, when — [inaudible].

[Magdelys Savigne:] I mean you can improvise — you have to know it. You have to know the rhythm.

[Howard Spring:] Yeah.

[Magdelys Savigne:] People improvise on the big one. But you have to know the traditional part. And then you can just pull one hand here and there to switch the rhythm slightly. But at the religious ceremony, you have to do what you have to do.

[Howard Spring] Right. OK. That makes sense. And you have to — nothing is written down, right? You have to remember all this whole oral tradition, right?

[Magdelys Savigne:] I mean, I just didn’t write it because school gave me the tools but you got to understand this guy’s didn’t go to school. Like back in the day –

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] — there was no school for them. It was all oral tradition. And I mean, it was then supposed to be oral. And that’s it. My eyes, provided –

[Howard Spring;] Yeah.

[Magdelys Savigne:] — so I don’t forget this because this is a lot of rhythm. So I have to remember a lot of pieces from the classical world. And then apart from that write all this rhythm. So I write some of them that I don’t remember. Others, you just play them so much that it just comes to you when you play them.

[Howard Spring] What’s the relationship between what you’re playing on the drums and the language that you’re singing in?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah. There has to be a relationship. So as I told you, the drums communicate to each other, right. Like call and response, the same. The chants also go on call and response. The singer sings one piece of the song and then the choir repeats after that, right? So you — Some chants, you can hear them through the drumming. For instance, Oshun has the Cheke Cheke which is another dance that it — goes with the dance through Cheke Cheke. So, with the steps and all that. The drums do.

[ Drumming ]

So that’s the drumming. The chant goes.

[ Drumming and Chant ]

So in that particular one, everything goes with the drummer. It’s very hard to do with the three of them. So.

[ Drumming and Singing ]

So, [chanting] that rhythm in that particular rhythm goes with the chant. Others is just you know what chant to sing once you hear that — the rhythm you know what chant –

[Howard Spring:] Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] — comes with it. That also, traditionally. Well, there are many, many chants. It’s not like one chant for rhythm. There are so many chants and they all have to do — have to come with a different rhythm. So, you never stop learning.

[Howard Spring] Do you have to know the dances too? Do you have to know how to dance them?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Well, I dance pretty badly, trust me [laughter].

[Howard Spring:] OK. So.

[Magdelys Savigne:] That particular thing like no, Cuban’s getting that folklore dance. I mean, some people specialize in that. And they dance properly to the Orishas, but I wouldn’t dare to do it. I have tried. For me the drumming, yes. I can take it anytime even the singing. But the dancing is another matter. It’s very hard because actually, you have to know the singing and the drumming. But the singer tells you what to dance. So you have to be aware of what they’re singing. And then you’re like, oh, so is this path from the Orisha and then you have to do it. What steps should I do? Ba-ba and then it goes with the drumming. And the drummer is going to be, OK. The singer just did this. Oh, the dancer just did that. So I have to basically do it. But physically do it no, I know what chant goes with what dance but visually. [Laughter]. I wouldn’t dare to go in person.

[Howard Spring:] When we, you know, when we learn about this music, African music and Afro-Cuban music I — there’s two things. One is this idea of polyrhythm. So is that what’s going on here as well?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yes. Many.

[Howard Spring:] OK.

[Magdelys Savigne:] That’s all a polyrhythm in these chants. I mean, that’s why the Bata so complete. It’s very complete instrument because it’s a lot happening. It’s not only rhythm. Its polyrhythm, plus the tuning that goes with it plus, the singing and everything else. So that’s a lot of polyrhythm.

[Howard Spring:] Can you demonstrate?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Sure. What I just did now. It’s very hard not having somebody else to play.

[Howard Spring:] Sure.

[Magdelys Savigne:] What we — if we do this in person one day, I can have the students with one drum each, and I can teach them how to play something from the rhythm. And then I grab this. I teach another one to do that. And that creates a polyrhythm. That’s what a polyrhythm is. So the amount of different rhythms on top of each other that match and they create something new. So let’s say for instance, let’s do this chacha locafun which is a very famous rhythm.

[ Drumming ]

So that’s a polyrhythm. So how would it sound separated? The one — the iya calls [drumming]. The okonkolo response papa, papa papa, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. That will be this one. That’s one of the easiest one. That’s what I teach my students there to start with. They just do that. [Chanting and Drumming] One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. So it’s easier to count on four then all threes. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three, four. So it’s the rule of three on top of four. So reanalyze it like that. One, two, three four. One, two, three, four. Then with that same counting, I’ll do the itotele. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Pak, pak, pak, pak. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Usually, the itotele, the middle one is the one that creates the most polyrhythms, right, because it’s in the middle. And the chacha is usually mostly never on time. It’s a beat usually, right? But — So, this is what — imagine if I play just this dry, no counting. [Drumming]. It could been in anywhere, right, if you don’t know where it is. [Drumming] One, one, one. Like who would say that the one is in the air? Like the one is not played by anybody. The one is played by iya. So only here you know where the one is. [Drumming] That’s it because the big drumming goes on the downbeat. [Drumming] One, one. That’s it. And the itotele is different. It’s one, one, two, three, four. One, one. It’s like no one is playing it. But actually, someone is playing it, the okonkolo is the one that keeps the beat and is the one that is counting also. So everybody pays attention to the okonkolo here because it does one, two, three, four. [Drumming and Chanting]. Yeah. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. You see that? So it’s not triplets. Were you doing? One, two, three. Pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. It’s like twosies. [Laughter]. [Inaudible].

[Howard Spring:] Like quarter-note triplets or something.

[ Drumming ]

[Magdelys Savigne:] One, two, three, four. One, one, one, two, three, four. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. If you want a take it like that. One, two, three, four. One, one, one. That’s a way of seeing syncopation there like with the counting of one, two, three, four. So sometimes people need that downbeat they need it. But not every single rhythm or toke has the downbeat. So there is when it gets complicated. And yeah, it is very complicated.

[Howard Spring:] So one of the things that we’re told sort of holds all this together is the clave.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yes.

[Howard Spring:] Can you talk about that a little bit?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Sure. And I’m going to use the same rhythm to do the clave. I’ll grab the clave.

[Howard Spring:] OK. Go ahead. Right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] So this was over here are the African claves. We call them African claves, couple of sticks [laughter]. And they are African claves. They’re Cuban. But we call it African cloves because they have this hole behind. I don’t know if you can see it properly. Yeah, this — it has like two holes in here, and then you put your hand in here. It has this shape. And you put your hand in the back of it. And it makes it sound deep. Otherwise, it will sound like this. [Claves sound] Very high, right. So you need this.

[ Clave Sound ]

You see. Any street tree. It sounds like this and the sticks will sound like this. But the clave have their particular sound just that. So in this particular rhythm, we will have many claves, of course. But in this particular rhythm we use the 6/8 clave. Or the guaguanco clave, 6/8 is this clave.

[ Clave Sound ]

I’m sure you’ve heard it. It sounds a syncopation happening there, right? So you — their ways of thinking of this clave. Let’s say you’re thinking of it in 6/8 way or 12/8. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three.

[ Clave Sound ]

One, two, three. One, two. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two. That’s it. Four, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Same thing. You could think it like round it to 4/4 or do 12/8 or 6/8. That’s the thing. So that’s — from that one comes the guaguanco clave. The clave that every Cuban plays, in Cuban music which is —

[ Clave Sound ]

Not confused with a Cuban clave which is the 3/2.

[ Clave Sound ]

You’ve heard it on the New Orleans theme. So that happens in New Orleans with a Cuban invasion, to New Orleans [inaudible]. That’s all about tradition there like they take from Cubans too.

[ Clave Sound and Chanting ]

That’s the Cuban clave is called the Cuban clave, 3/2. But the 2/3 is one, two. One. Two, three. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. That counts from the 6/8 one. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three. Guaguanco. Two, three, four. One, two, three, four. We just take it, f new few beats of this one.

[ Clave Sound ]

Basically, the same clave, but just taking a few beats from that one, from that rhythm and it creates a whole new clave. Oh, we also have the other one. [Clave Sound]. Just play that guys. Like three beats. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. Well, where do I play that? [Clave Sound]. With the count four, one, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four.

[ Clave Sound ]

So there’s a lot of other rhythm that you can create there. So if we see each other one day, we could also do that. I play games with the clave. You’re going to play the one, two, three, one, two. Let somebody else can play one, two, one, two, three. Somebody else can play pa pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. The 6/8. And somebody else could do [inaudible].

[ Clave Sound ]

So you can create many, many polyrhythms with that. Or what we used to do at school, which is go nuts and switch the downbeat to the two, three or four, whatever you want to do. For instance, if you’re doing one, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three. You can switch to your downbeat to 2.

[ Clave Sound ]

So you start on the second beat or somebody else’s start on third. And you can also create a whole new song. Even with [inaudible] let’s go with that. So there are things you can do with the clave.

[Howard Spring:] I’ll try and get you up to our class. You can do that in our class. That’d be great.

[Magdelys Savigne:] That would be so much fun. The kids love that [laughter].

[Howard Spring:] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Let me ask you another question about that. You know, when we were giving — when you were demonstrating some of those chants and pieces and drumming. I didn’t hear the clave in that. Was it operational or what’s going on there?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah, there’s no physical clave with the Yoruba with the Santeria. It’s physical. You could do the clave with people in the parties, in the ceremonies. They do clap the clave because it’s actually makes it fun, right? It gives you energy to play the drums. But the clave is internal. So let’s say you — we know already this clave. [Clave sound] One, two, three, four. We know that, right? So keep that in mind. And we’re going to do that same chacha [inaudible] from the way were doing. Let’s say we want to put that clave to learn the okonkolo. OK? We’re going to do pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. [Drumming] [inaudible] pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. One, two, three, clave. Pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. That’s your okonkolo, right? So you got the itotele. Remember that the itotele, the one was somewhere in the air, right? You were doing, one, one. Remember that? So, we got to do the same with the clave.

[ Drumming ]

You see that? And then the iya.

[ Chanting ]

You may say that when it’s easier. Well, that one has to do a lot of improvisation. That one is the one that solos in the middle of — in this particular rhythm. So.

[ Drumming and Chanting ]

But that was art [inaudible] [laughter]. I want to do it all. I mean, you should practice that? We got one show person [laughter]. So, yeah.

[Howard Spring:] That was great. That was fantastic really. So there’s so many ways –

[Magdelys Savigne:] Imagine to bring the polyrhythm on top of that? The polyrhythm of singing to bring it on top of this polyrhythm. That’s crazy.

[Howard Spring:] Yeah. It is. But it sounds great, sounds great.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Well, thank you.

[Howard Spring:] That’s fantastic. Ryan, did you want to ask something more about this?

[Ryan Bruce:] I’d like to see it on the side. I’d like to see you actually play it on the side.

[Howard Spring:] Right. Right. OK.

[Ryan Bruce:] Because I think that there’s — I think there’s something I’m maybe I’m kind of missing. And maybe that same beat that you were — that same polyrhythm that you were putting together.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah. So for instance, this is the side of the drum. We’re going to do that same thing clave.

[ Chanting and Drumming ]

That’s iya. Itotele. [Drumming], remember? One, one. That’s the one. So.

[ Chanting and Drumming ]

So, this one is different from the iya, because this one has a short sound because its short sound. You got open sound [drumming] and you got to short sound. So, there — there’s a switch — like a slightly change of pitch and music with that combined with the chacha, so. I mean, if you hear the pitch of course. [Drumming]. If you do two open. So it sound like this [drumming]. It’s like another different rhythm. But if you do this.

[ Drumming ]

Let’s say — I mean, that one I think was responding to a call that the mother might have done. And the same with your okonkolo.

[ Chanting and Drumming ]

Or you could do. [Drumming]. Like add that feeling of an eight note on top of that too.

[ Drumming and Chanting ]

You could do that.

[ Drumming and Singing ]

You could do. [Drumming] or [drumming]. And, you know, it’s like, you could combine the both of them and together when everybody plays that makes a difference. So you see different techniques for the drum. Again, on the mouth side [drumming]. The mother, the whole hand and you bring that boomy sound out. You got itotele with the fingers. And you have this short sound also. You don’t do this for the itotele. There’s no sound there. But you do this [drumming]. And you have the okonkolo with the tip of your fingers [drumming]. That one has no bass sound either. And so that, bringing that little like a bell-ish sound.

[ Drumming ]

Very, very bell-ish sound. So you got that —

[ Drumming ]

Different and the other side you got the chacha same. You don’t need to bring your own hand to tap on that. Like that’s a mistake. Like a rookie mistake when you start doing these drums. You try on hit as much as you can like a slap on the congas. But then they’ll actually break your hand if you do that. So it’s mostly fingers, and it has to be itchy, and it hurts. But then you get used to it and you don’t feel thing after that. So you can be no hand model after that. So forget about that career. But I mean, if you put some cream on it your hand might get soft again, but don’t care about that when you’re playing. So you use your fingers and play that same movement of a slap of a conga like that. [Drumming]. It got to sound very dry, like bop, bop.

[ Drumming ]

That and [drumming]. So in this case, they both have pitches to.

[ Drumming ]

I’ll play it from this side now. So you see enough what’s happening.

[ Drumming ]

So you see, you can create whatever you want. But that’s basically it, you know, with the technique, twice.

[Ryan Bruce:] It seems like the — almost the sound or the rhythm of that one is like a duple rhythm although you were counting in three. But does it have almost like a one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four?

[Magdelys Savigne:] That’s why I give you the freedom of thinking on three or four, it’s up to you. It has the feeling on its own of four or two-ee rhythm. But once you combine it with the rest, it changes. So its better if you learn it both ways because then when you put the iya on the Itotele so the other bigger drums playing it’s all triplets. If you’re going to write that down, it’ll be all triplets. And you want them to be on the right comfortable time signature, right? But this one if you — let’s say you want to just write whether your okonkolo dos you can just do 2/4, 4/4 whatever we want and just do just eight notes. [Chanting] Just it crushes there if you want. [Drumming] you could do that. But in the back of your head, you must be thinking —

[ Chanting and Clapping ]

You need that duality. So I mean, if you want to go deep –

[Ryan Bruce:] That’s right.

[Magdelys Savigne:] — with it, they’ll be a good idea.

[Ryan Bruce:] Yeah. So, it’s — But it’s really that drum that creates the cross rhythm.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah, this one.

[Ryan Bruce:] Is that right? Yeah.

[Magdelys Savigne:] And that this one. Yeah. Sometimes the itotele does to with the upbeat sort of thing. Let’s say, what other rhythm could have that?

[ Drumming and Counting ]

You see, it’s all eighth notes. [Drumming] and the rest of course.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

So this one, you have to do then died on a crotchet and then semiquaver. You got an a quaver or semiquaver. You could do that.

[ Drumming ]

For this one. Unless you do, in triplets all. One, two, three, one two three

[ Drumming and Chanting ]

This one you could write it in.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

I mean, it depends on how you’re feeling of what are you — where you want to put it. So you cannot be square to oh, I just want to do this 4/4. No, you got to know what’s behind it with the 6/8. You got to count to like this — like the double time counting can help you a lot. That’s what we used to do. Because then you could put it into perspective. And then when you’re comfortable, then you go to the 4/4. But that’s a beautiful thing about this because you could put it in both and people still going to feel a difference. So is one thing while you are feeling as a percussionist, playing it. And it’s one another, like one or the thing, what the audience is going to receive, right? Because you are — let’s say you’re playing with two more guys or girls, that’s it. Let’s put it all together, two more people and you’re doing your rhythm while you’re focussed on the random because you have to be listening to them while you’re focussed on doing your rhythm. So you’re feeling mostly what this drum is giving you. The middle one is focussed mostly on that rhythm and the big one the same. But then when they play together, you hear one thing because you know where the one is. You’re supposed to know where the one is and where the rhythm sounds really like, right? But the people don’t know that. Their one will be different. Their feeling will be different and that creates a whole new experience for everybody. And rhythm wise. You get — I can play this for you and then you can tell me where the one is. Let’s say let’s make — let’s try that. Let’s try them. Now that you were at this for a while now and you have an odd feeling with a one. Yes. Let’s try that. Let’s try that. Oh, it make any sense, let’s do that [laughter].

[ Drumming ]

What do you think of the 1 is?

[Ryan Bruce:] I heard on the last hit that you got.

[Magdelys Savigne:] So.

[Howard Spring:] Right. Lower drum I think, no?

[Ryan Bruce:] There’s on the lower drum. Yeah. The last one.

[Howard Spring:] Yeah.

[Magdelys Savigne:] The lower drum has far the ones. So I won’t separate it because it is very complicated to hear with so many things happening at the same time. So I’m going to do

[ Drumming ]

So, [laughter]. So you can do –

[Ryan Bruce:] So, that one was after. It seemed like the one was going to come right after the [inaudible].

[Magdelys Savigne:] Right after, right. So I finished on one, so with that one. So you say one, two, three, four.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

It’s — because it has like a different step. It has like an upbeat, sort of one of syncopation there. It’s what it throws us out, right?

[ Drumming ]

That’s what the middle one does. And you could tell where the downbeat is because of the chacha is very steady.

[ Drumming ]

But then can you tell — you know where the downbeat is? Now that one is a problem.

[ Drumming ]

You might think it is, one, two, three, four, one, two [Laughter]. It is not.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

So it’s like a different spot. But I mean, it takes you somewhere else. And you go with it. And that’s the beauty of it, you know. You create your own world with this drums. That’s what I liked them so much. You can create so much with them.

[Howard Spring:] Yeah. Clearly that was really well click. Anything else?

[Ryan Bruce:] If you’re three people that were playing, because you were talking about how you’re thinking in these quick triplets or –

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah.

[Ryan Bruce:] One, two, three. One, two, three, or like a 6/8 time. Would it be typical that everybody — that all three musicians are on the same or feeling that same pulse, or would it be typical that people are feeling and thinking of something different, to create that sense of polyrhythm?

[Magdelys Savigne:] No. It’s up to you. We all have hearts. We all have different pulses and we still beat the same, you know? It doesn’t matter — it means to an end. It doesn’t matter how you beat like. You beat the way you beat. But it has to go with me. We don’t actually talk to each other say, OK, you know what, let’s think of this, like 6/8 instead of 4/4. Nobody says that to you. You just feel the calling. You play along with it. And it doesn’t matter where you are. We get connected because you feel the rhythm. And you have to do that polyrhythm right away, right? You know where to come in. If you know the drum, you know where to sing. You know where to step in if you’re a dancer. I don’t know, it’s not a matter of saying it in a chord or anything. It’s just the — a matter of feeling. It’s a feeling. It’s a connection that you have with the other musicians, the same with a band.

[Howard Spring:] What’s that instrument that you’re playing now? What’s the name of it and where is it used, that kind of thing?

[Magdelys Savigne:] So this is my second favourite instrument that I play. And it’s called a cajon, C-A-J-O-N, cajon. There’s a variant of where they come from. We call it cajon flamenco because we actually got to Cuba with the Spaniards when they conquered us and is played with a flamenco dancing and singing. So that’s it, flamenco cajon or you can say that it comes from Peru, which is the original, the indigenous people used to play it with this. Very similar to this one. That’s why this one particularly like, because they has like a hybrid of that flamenco feeling with the Peruvian deep sound of the cajon. So it’s a box. It’s a box that has strings inside. And it has actually, let me show you has a hole in the back where the sound comes from. So this is very cool. People might get their inside. And it’s a lot of things to discover. But they actually have strings inside in different positions. So you have strings like this, steel strings. Like guitar strings. You have them in this position or depends on the sound that you want in the particular cajon or they manufacturer that they want to put in like this, like that and give that kind of snare drumming. So that’s why sometimes we use it as a portable drum kit because we have the bass sound like this, and we have this sort of snare-ish sound.

[ Drumming ]

I mean, like what’s not to like. It’s a portable drum. You can just carry everywhere. You can sit on it. I mean, it’s great. But different techniques depends on the rhythm and the — whatever rhythm genre that you’re doing. It changes the rhythm. So it’s not just one part- it doesn’t belong to any religion. It’s just the flow is very cool, very cool. That’s why I love it. [Howard Spring:] So when would you play it? You play at social events, for entertainment, for performance or all of those?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Entertainment, performance, social events, all. All — so this is so such a great instrument that I — when I first got to Canada, I was hired for so many weddings. One of this was like an example. So many Jewish weddings and celebrations. [Foreign language] I used to do a lot of those and Turkish parties. And I used to play those genres with the cajon. So imagine — you could actually insert this into anybody. Anybody, any culture, and it will work. It’s just great but I mean mainly, it’s used for the Spanish flamenco dances and the Peruvian as well. It has different rhythm and metric but basically that’s it. Flamenco has more of a 6/8 feeling. The Barlow’s, the Buleria. It has many — it depends Buleria is like —

[ Drumming ]

So you hear that or 6/8 normal in marcha and rumba.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

You see. If you like 4/4 but is actually 6/8 as well. And the bularia, they count as different. You still [claps] like that, but they don’t do — it’s like similar to Turkey. Just 9/8 in Turkey will be — not in Turkey. The whole world, 9/8 is one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three. Right? But for Turkish guys differently, they do one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two. And is actually — they emphasize one certain spot and that changes the 9/8 but still my 9/8. But you do one, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three.

[ Beatbox ]

So it’s there. But they just put an accent in a different spot and then it’s the changes of feeling. So that’s the Turkish. The Spaniards also switch the counting and they have their own counting. They do one, two. One, two, three. So I mean, I have to do in Spanish because it’s hard to do it in Spanish — in English.

[ Foreign Language ]

It’s part of the rhythm.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

I mean, it’s hard. It’s hard to think in English. So I tried to do that rhythm. You learn it in Spanish and — but I’ll try. I’ll try it and then the next time we see each other I might be able to do it in English.

[Howard Spring:] Sure. So when you’re playing Cuban music, are there specific rhythms like there were for the Bata?

[Magdelys Savigne:] So, in rhythm — in Cuban rhythm, in Cuban music, you don’t use the cajon. So the cajon is not part of our African upbringing. You do congas, you do bongos, you do Bata. The cajon, you do the Spanish side because Cubans also defend like tigers, their Spanish side and European side. So basically, what you use is you just play the power of the rhythms. You use buleria. You play rumba flamenco. You — That’s what you do with the actual cajon you keep your music. But nowadays, like everywhere else you just put in part of the timba, of salsa. You can play also cajon on it and you create different polyrhythms to that. We’ve created things like —

[ Drumming and Counting ]

So you know have to take your drum kit. Now basically will be the drum kit pattern. This will be the base drum.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

The snare drum.

[ Drumming and Counting ]

The — When you put all that together and then you actually feeling quite a few things

[ Drumming and Counting ]

So you do — you put a cowbell to that and it creates a whole new experience. OK. That will be in Cuba music. But in Cuba we basically do it for the Spanish side, for the flamencos.

[Ryan Bruce:] Is there a clave that’s guiding your — this music then if it’s on the Spanish side?

[Magdelys Savigne:] So there’s no clave for the Spain. No, clave. The clave is an African thing, but what the rhythm. I was just playing which is a new creation on top of Cuban Conga pattern and bongos, whatever, what the drum key would do. What we do is we could do the clave, the same.

[ Clapping and Counting ]

That same one that we did before with the Bata. But the particular thing about this one is that the one we saw somewhere else. So remember that we were doing.

[ Clapping and Counting ]

So, the one will switch to the next side of the clave.

[ Clapping and Counting ]

[ Drumming and Counting ]

It depends on the clave. So there I did a clave Cubana, which is the Cuban clave. The 3/2. And I also did the 2/3. So, you see, it’s a flavour. It’s up to you on what you want to do. The difference would be Bata drums is that anybody can play them.

[Howard Spring:] Right. That’s an important [inaudible].

[Magdelys Savigne:] There’s no religious ceremony with it. You just play them anywhere despite –

[Howard Spring:] Any gender? You can be man or woman or any gender to play them?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Any gender plays them but –

[Howard Spring:] OK.

[Magdelys Savigne:] I mean, in Cuba is tricky. The situation with women and percussion. But I mean, nowadays is better, right, as a told you is way better. And many girls are now taking out the percussion which is amazing. There’s no boys club anymore, still, you find people are given here and find people here that they’re still — because they grew up with that kind of mentality. And they still have it. They don’t call you to perform with their bands or anything because you’re a woman, not because you are not good at what you do. It’s just that it’s a boy’s thing. And you’re not included. So in this particular instrument is the same thing. You just play. If you like it, you play and if you want to go deep into the flamenco, there are different techniques for it as well. You play with a tocon. So, with the heel. You play it here. You play it here, you switch pitch. Here, it won’t sound because this is a hybrid for proven. But if it would be the real cajon flamenco then you will hear that [drumming] up. So, that you can hear it. So you press this as if you weren’t pressing — while you press it with your feet or foot. But as if you were pressing the congas skin, and it kind of switches pitch there. And mostly fingers and bass but it’s a flavour thing. It’s a soul thing. You bring your own flavour. You — There’s nothing standard, like you have to do this or that. No. It’s like you bring your own sort of natural instinct, instinct to the instrument. Nobody talks about that. Oh, so that’s the thing that we were talking about, especially on the Bata drums. It’s not something that you study at school. And it’s something that you pick up on the street because it’s very — it’s part of the religion. And in Cuba, there was no such thing as an open thing to this religious side unless this Catholic. There was a time in Cuba where everybody religious was persecuted. So this religion in particular was persecuted. Now it’s better but still consider like an underground religious like black magic and voodoo stuff like that. Craziness. So those are now considered part of — I mean, they are part of the history. And on the history books in Cuba, you — they talk about them because it’s undeniable that they exist and the richness that they bring to our music. But there is no like a deep, deep to go deep on the religion unless you belong to a religion. And, you know, you pick up a one thing or two when you play them and you enter that world. But at school, you won’t see or hear or play them. So that makes a difference.

[Howard Spring:] So it’s kind of like a lower status then?

[Magdelys Savigne:] Yeah, it is.

[Howard Spring:] Yeah, yeah. OK. That’s interesting.

[Magdelys Savigne:] Unfortunately.

[Howard Spring:] Well, yeah. No, I agree.