Episode Notes

Research Interests

• Institutional responses to sexual violence, particularly medico-legal interventions and the role and nature of forensic evidence and experts in criminal justice systems
• Science and technology studies (STS)
• Critical research on sexual violence prevention initiatives, with an emphasis on anti-rape technologies

Selected Publications

White, D. & McMillan, L. (2020). Innovating the problem away? A critical study of anti-rape technologies. Violence Against Women, 26(10), 1120-1140. https://doi.org/10.1177/1077801219856115

McMillan, L. & White, D. (2019). Boundary-making in the medico-legal context: Examining doctor- nurse dynamics in post-sexual assault forensic medical interventions. Sociology of Health & Illness, 41(1), 36-51. 10.1111/1467-9566.12807

Du Mont, J. & White, D. (2013). Sexual violence: What does it take for the world to care about women?  Journal of Public Health, 35(2), 182-184. 10.1093/pubmed/fdt045

White, D. & Du Mont, J. (2009). Visualizing sexual assault: Forensic technologies and the culture of medicolegal expertise.  Social Science & Medicine, 68(1), 1-8. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2008.09.054

Du Mont, J. & White, D. (2007). The Uses and Impacts of Medico-Legal Evidence in Sexual Assault Cases: A Global Review. Commissioned by the World Health Organization/Global Health Forum, for the Sexual Violence Research Initiative. https://iris.who.int/handle/10665/43795

Learn about Deborah’s influences

• Charlie Angus (MP Timmins James Bay)
• Jacinda Ardern (New Zealand)
• Christian McBride (Jazz bassist)
• Terri Lyne Carrington (Jazz drummer)
• Dr. Leslie McMillan (Glasgow)

Learn about Deborah’s interests

• History of jazz
• Institute for Jazz and Gendered Justice, program at Berklee
• Philosophy
• Emma Thompson (Actress/Writer)
• Big Night (film)
• About Time (film)
• This American Life (podcast)
• 99% Invisible (podcast)
• Let’s Not be Kidding (Gavin Crawford, CBC podcast)
• Derry Girls (show)
• Ted Lasso (show)
• The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (show)

Transcript

Beth: Welcome to the Social Profs Podcast with your hosts Beth Torrens and Kristy Buccieri. This is the podcast where we attempt to turn teaching inside out by engaging in conversations outside the classroom with faculty, community members, and Trent student alumni. Our goals with these conversations are to learn more about the benefits of a criminology or sociology degree and to talk about the ways that students can get more involved at Trent and in the community. We will also do a deep dive with some Trent professors to learn more about their approaches to teaching, what drives their research, and a few fun facts you can only learn when you turn teaching inside out.

Kristy: Deborah White is a professor in the department of Sociology at Trent University, but did you also know she’s a big fan of jazz. In this episode of the Social Profs we talk with Deborah about her research, her interests and the special dessert she has in mind for her next birthday. Hi Deborah thank you for joining us today!

Deborah: Hello Kristy. Hello Beth.

Kristy: We’re wondering if you could tell us a bit about what is the one burning question that drives your research, and what got you interested in trying to answer it?

Deborah: Well, for the past 30 years, roughly, I’ve been studying the institutional and technological responses to sexual violence against women. And in particular, I look at the coming together of medicine, science, and law, and how experts and expertise that represent this coming together, how they’re used to address the social problem. So I would say probably at a substantive level, I guess what drives the research is a desire to see an end to sexual violence, certainly that, but at a more conceptual level and sort of where I spend my time intellectually, I think the bigger question that drives me is how can those initiatives and those institutions that are ostensibly designed to help women end up in many cases actually working against them. That’s something that really drives me a lot in terms of my work. So that kind of question points my research then to examining the nature of the forensic technologies and experts that are a part of the state’s response to the social problem and then sort of looking at what works and what doesn’t and trying to account for why, and of course, ultimately hopefully answers that may lead to some change down the line.

Beth: That’s definitely very necessary research, very important research, but also probably some difficult conversations to have with research participants or even as you’re sharing your research. So how do you handle teaching or sharing some of those research findings that cover difficult topics?

Deborah: Well, in terms of teaching, I actually only discuss my research in my fourth-year course, and I just cover it in two classes. So really, my research actually does not come into play much in my teaching, um because I teach the first-year course, and we don’t talk about it there, and I teach a third year course on culture and society, which doesn’t get into that at all. But what I have learned, though, from teaching, yeah, both, or sorry, all first, third, and fourth-year sociology, is that I actually can’t always anticipate what might be a difficult topic for any student. We address in sociology, we address social issues and problems and inevitably, there will be something that someone finds hard. Um and so, I’ve come to that realization, so really what I do and sort of the best I can see to do is that I, you know, I put on my syllabi, my syllabuses, that some topics, you know, in the course may be difficult. And then I just try to approach them as sensitively as possible. That’s sort of all I can do because we can’t avoid them, especially in the field of sociology and many people can’t avoid them in real life either.

Beth: So just like students maybe don’t all have the same experiences with difficult topics, not all students maybe have the same favourite topic. But if you could choose or if you could think about one, what do you think a favourite topic for students is that you teach? And maybe how does that compare to your favourite topic to teach?

Deborah: Well, in terms of a favourite topic for students, I honestly really can’t say because they all come into the class with different experiences and they all seem to have, you know, different types of sociology that they find interesting, right? We have different specializations, so some prefer certain types of sociology, maybe macro or micro sociology and things like that. So essentially, some will like some topics better than others. That’s sort of what I’ve learned with them and my challenges try to try and make them all the topics interesting for everyone but that’s just a challenge that I engage in endlessly. In terms of my favorite lecture or topic, to be honest, I always think each lecture is really going to be interesting and, so I that’s the truth and so I tend to get quite excited the morning of a teaching day about that topic. I usually wake up and I’m like, Oh, good, I get to talk about this. However, at the same time, over the years, I have also as a teacher, I’ve sort of lived by the sense that you’re only as good as your last lecture. Now, I don’t know if that’s healthy or not. But that’s sort of how I live. I’m only as good as my last lectures. So if I do a lecture, and I really sense from the students that it resonated, and that they learn something and that they were engaged, and you can usually tell you can sort of tell by how they respond, then to be honest, that’s my favourite lecture. That then becomes my favourite lecture until the next one. But honestly, that that’s how I determine my favourite lecture.

Kristy: You know, I have to agree with you. And I, I have a similar sort of approach where I almost feel sometimes like a bit of a rock star, like you’re only as good as your last album.

Deborah: Oh Yeah. Yeah, if I if I do one where I feel, I don’t know, they just weren’t connecting, or I don’t seem to distract or something like that. It just wants me until I’m back in class next week. And I go, Okay, this time, I gotta, I gotta do something different or whatever. So, I could have many, many good ones behind me, but they don’t matter if I feel like one didn’t wasn’t all that successful.

Kristy: For sure and you know I’m sure my students don’t think of me as a rock star but I like to do so myself.

Deborah: [laughs] Good for you.

Kristy: Deborah, if you were having a dinner party and you could invite anyone you want, living or past, who would you invite and why?

Deborah: Well, okay. I think there is truth to the adage that it’s not always good to meet your heroes. So um, if I’m thinking in terms of bringing together a diverse group of people to the party, maybe celebrities, politicians, activists, things like that, I think in terms of celebrity again, I wouldn’t be all that keen to bring one. But if I were to bring one, I would probably bring the actress Emma Thompson, who I think is a really clever actress and someone who seems really sort of bright and observant and quite funny and I’ll watch almost any film that she’s in so I think she would be a relaxing and a relaxed guest to have and that’s what I wanted my dinner party. If I were going to have a politician coming I might choose Charlie Angus actually who’s the MP for Timmons James Bay because I love his long standing social justice roots and the fact that he seems to me to sort of walk the walk. And I also like the fact that he’s a writer and a musician, which means we could talk about things then other than politics. And if there were enough money in the dinner party budget for it, the other politician would be Jacinda Ardern, the former prime minister of New Zealand. Well, I absolutely loved watching her, you know, really strong, compassionate, intelligent leadership, especially through the pandemic. And I just found her really inspiring and someone who seems to have integrity and a good sense of fun, which is quite necessary for my dinner party. People have to have that. In terms of a combined sort of celebrity and activist, I’m gonna tap into my world of jazz, which is my main passion in life besides my family and my work. And I would have, for those who know jazz at all, and if you don’t, I’ll tell you why I’d have them, I’d have Christian McBride, who I think is one of the greatest living jazz bassists, and Terry Lyne Carrington, who I believe is one of the greatest living jazz drummers. They’re massive talents, both multiple Grammy Award winners, complete legends, and seemingly really nice people, because that’s also important for my dinner party. And activists I’m really inspired by Terry Lyne Carrington, who teaches at the Berkeley School of Music, which is certainly one of the top jazz education institutions in the world. And a few years ago, she founded and is still the first director of their Institute for Jazz and Gender Justice, only programmed to introduce that in a music program and it’s racial justice as well. So I think it’s long overdue and really, really fascinating and because I’ve always had a dream to teach the sociology of music and do a unit on jazz, I could draw on people that teach in that. And as for an academic, inviting one to the dinner party, I’ve sort of spent my life with them and I’ve often met ones whose work I admire, but perhaps I might not want to spend an evening with them, I don’t know. So I would have to pick a known entity, I pick someone I know, an academic I know. And I have to say, the first one that comes to mind is my longtime collaborator from Glasgow Caledonian University in Scotland. and that’s Dr. Leslie McMillan. She’s one of the finest academics, I know for sure, but she is also a lot of fun, okay. And she’s massively intrepid, one of the most curious people about everything that I’ve ever met. So, I figured she could be there and talk with everyone about anything. And then that would round out an interesting evening for the dinner party.

Kristy: That sounds amazing. We are also going to put together a playlist for students based on faculty music recommendations, so if you have some jazz songs that our students need to hear, send them to us and we can add them on.

Deborah: Oh, well, you’ve just set my new workload for the weekend. Now, if someone throws that challenge to me, my mind won’t stop. Okay, thank you.

Kristy:  And as a follow-up, what would you serve at this dinner?

Deborah: Oh, so in this case, I would get my son-in-law to cater it. He is becoming one of the best chefs cooks that I know. It’s not what he does as his profession, but he is like the most amazing cook. We have him cooked every special occasion family meal if we can. And so, I would confer with him on what would be most appropriate. But I think we probably have something Italian, I’d want to start with a charcuterie tray, because people will sit around that and join in and get everyone sort of talking. So from there, I would want a few courses, so that we can just sit at the table and really enjoy the coming out of the next wonderful thing. So, the appetizer might be okay, now I’m thinking about this, the appetizer might be he makes this amazing thing with burrata cheese that everyone could dip into at the table, that would be good. And then certainly some pasta dish And then for dessert, I know this is what I asked him to make for my birthday. I’ve already put my order in for my birthday for this and he just made it for my daughter’s birthday last week is his amazing coconut cream pie. That’s my favorite. So everyone else is going to have to eat that. And if they don’t coconut cream, he has many other options. We’d have some sticky toffee pudding would be the other thing we’d offer people.

Beth: So that sounds like a dinner party with lots of really good conversation and lots of really great food.

Deborah: Yeah, and the music. I’ll think about that, but it’ll be there.

Beth: Yeah.

[Music]

Beth: So the next set of questions we have are some rapid fire questions to get to know a little bit more about you. Some are serious, some are fun, and you can answer with a serious answer or a funny answer and you also don’t have to elaborate if you don’t want to. A one or two word answer is completely fine. Are you ready for the rapid fire?

Deborah: Okay we’ll see how rapid I am but it’s okay.

[Music]

Beth:  So the first question is what is your favorite memory from when you were a student?

Deborah: Well it was a long time ago so it’s hard to remember a lot of things but I absolutely remember the moment where I realized that sociology was what I wanted to do for my life. And I’m not just saying that because this is a sociology podcast. I was, I’ll just be really brief, but I was in the radio and television arts program at, at the time, it was called Ryerson, it’s now TMU. And it was hard to get into. And it was, you know, really select group of people that got into it. So it was a very special thing to be in it. And I was on my path to becoming a radio documentary producer. That’s what I thought I was going to do. But I took sociology as an elective. And by the third class, it was like this Eureka moment. And I went, Oh, no, this is what I’m doing for my life. I have to think this way. I have to be in this world and do this forever. And that, that was probably 1981 and I have to say, it was right. It has been the one thing I’ve wanted to do. Well, I’d be a jazz musician if I could, but not good enough. So, so this is a pretty good career.

Beth: And when you’re not being a sociologist, what is your favourite thing to do on the weekend?

Deborah: Oh, well, I’m usually down in Toronto then and at our place there. And so, it’s wandering about the city is one of my favourite things going out for lunch and that and definitely going out to jazz clubs and seeing music. And my very favourite thing to do is my son, who’s a jazz musician, if he’s playing somewhere, that’s the ultimate weekend thing for me. But just, especially when the weather gets nicer, wandering down at the harbour and things like that.

Beth: As an academic, what is something you can’t live without?

Deborah: [Short pause] my computer, but I hesitated because I’d also say other really great colleagues that I have. I wouldn’t want to do this without them.

Beth: Is there a favorite TV show, podcast or movie that you have?

Deborah: Yes, movie is a film called Big Night. I’ll just say, great food and jazz movie together. So that’s why I love it. Big Night. Oh, another, my go to movie when I just want, I don’t tend to watch really heavy movies because my work is quite heavy. My ultimate tearjerker feel good one is About Time. I love that movie. Podcast. I like This American Life and 99% Invisible. I like those. And recently, recently I’ve been listening to a CBC podcast hosted by Gavin Crawford it’s called let’s not be kidding and it’s on his experience with his mother who had Alzheimer’s and that’s an experience that I’m currently going through. So I find it really interesting. TV shows, I can never remember. There’s so much to stream. I know we watched a lot during the pandemic, and I know I loved Dairy Girls, but I had to have the subtitles on because I can’t understand it without it. And I like Ted Lasso. And the marvelous is Mrs. Maisel. I remember those ones. I’ve watched a lot of others, but I can’t remember them.

Beth: What advice would you give your past student self?

Deborah: [pause] Do the work. Do the work, but keep it in perspective. Right? It’s, it’s like, just get the work done. But don’t get overwhelmed. Just remember, sometimes it’s one assignment, one class. It’s just your education. There’s other stuff going on as well. Just try and keep it in perspective. And also enjoy, well actually I did this, but I would say it to someone else. Enjoy learning the materials. It’s like your one chance in life for four years where you’re going to get exposed to all sorts of things that once you’re out of university, you’re so busy with your job and everything else, and you don’t get to just read those kinds of things, even and take electives, take, take things you think you’re not going to major in, like, you know, philosophy or history. And just really, I took literature courses, that I kind of resented that I had to take as electives. And as an adult, I took American literature and Canadian literature. Oh, I still love reading that stuff. And I remember those things. And I can like still win at some jeopardy questions when they’re I guess just pay attention, but don’t let it dominate everything. But pay attention, and to the extent that you can, try to enjoy it.

Kristy: Good advice. If you could instantly have any skill, party trick, or talent, what would it be?

Deborah: Well, if I could do anything, I would be able to play piano and play some amazing music for people at a party.

Kristy: What course or subject did you not take as a student that you wish you could learn more about now?

Deborah: Philosophy. I always think that when I retire, if I went and audited courses, I would start with philosophy. I’m very curious about it. And we have students, right, that sometimes are majoring, and sometimes they’ll talk about stuff. And I think, oh, that sounds really fascinating.

Kristy: Who do you admire?

Deborah: Who do I admire? Well, I, I could name famous people, but with famous people, you don’t know their character, I think, and you don’t know how they live their daily lives. You just get one, one glimpse of them, I think. So the people I tend to admire are people I mostly know. And I have a circle of, you know, lifetime amazing friends that I admire or partner admire. And I certainly have incredible admiration for both my son and my daughter. But if I had to say one person, I’d say my father. He taught me that the only principle you need to live by is the golden rule. Do one to others as you would have them do to you. And he is a man who has spent his entire life trying his best to live that way. I really have such immense respect and admiration for someone who just tries to always live by that. And I only could hope I could even come close to that, but I really admire him.

Kristy: This is a different kind of question. Cat, dog, fish, bird, or lizard?

Deborah: Dog.

Kristy: If you weren’t working as an academic, what would you be doing?

Deborah: Probably be in radio, in radio production.

Kristy: If you hadn’t found sociology.

Deborah: Yes, if I hadn’t, I probably would have, well, what I want to say is I would be a jazz musician, but I’m not good enough. So, I might have a shot at radio production.

Beth: And that concludes our rapid-fire round. So, thank you very much, Deborah, for your answers to all of our questions. It was great hearing from you and learning all about your different interests and love of jazz.

Deborah: Yes, thank you very much.

[Music]